56: Wonder and Salvation with Hannah Black

Hosts: Brandon Nappi, Whitney Kimball Coe, and Misty Krasawski 

Guest: Hannah Black 

Production: Goodchild Media 

Music: Wayfaring Stranger, Theodicy Jazz Collective 

Art: E. Landino 

Instagram: @theleadersway.podcast 

berkeleydivinity.yale.edu/podcast

Brandon: Hey, Hannah. 

Hannah:  Hey, Brandon. 

B:            How’s it going? 

H:           It’s weird to be across the table from you. 

B:            It’s weird. It’s like we’re in a standoff. 

H:           I can look straight into your eyes. That’s true. 

B:            Yeah, yeah. 

H:           In five paces, we’ll find out who’s leaving but actually …

B:            You went full Hamilton on this.

H:           Well, first, let’s talk about graduation.  

B:            Oh my gosh. Have we ever had such pristine weather conditions? 

H:           Oh, that’s very true. I will say, firstly, that my doctoral bonnet was the envy of all divinity professors. So that made me feel good about myself. 

B:            Let’s just take a step back and admit the obvious, that Cambridge has the best regalia.

H:           And it’s not aerodynamic. It was, like, a little  bit breezy.

B:            Wind tunnels had not been invented when they tested that.

H:           It was like exceptionally pleasant. We had some …  my favorite– one of my favorite things is seeing who gets the honorary degrees. It was so fun to see. Michael Curry, Debbie Allen, and Henry Louis Gates Junior. 

B:            It was a star-studded lineup indeed.

H:           Very cool. 

B:            And I love seeing our graduates, get so excited. They’ve done so much work, and their families come. 

H:           And they’re being celebrated. 

B:            People are crying. Family members are crying. Babies are crying. Dogs are doing all sorts of things, by the way. 

H:           Uh-huh. There was no lack of dog at graduation either.

B:            And I tear up a little bit because I get a little weepy to say goodbye. 

H:           Yeah. That that that is the worst part of being any kind of teacher or professor or …

B:            That’s why you need the shades. I was in full shades. 

H:           You know what I found in the sleeve of my doctoral gown were sunglasses from last year’s graduation.

B:            Saint Anthony coming through a little late, but …

H:           A little late. Better late than never. 

B:            Hi. I’m Brandon Nappi. 

H:           Hi. I’m Hannah Black, and we’re your hosts on the Leader’s Way podcast. 

B:            A Yale podcast empowering leaders, cultivating spirituality, and exploring theology. 

H:           This podcast is brought to you by Berkeley Divinity School, the Episcopal Seminary at Yale. 

H:           Well, as you know, I’ve been packing as the listeners may have gathered from various social media rumblings. 

B:            Boxes are stacked.

H:           Yeah. The good news is I got a Louisville Institute fellowship, and I’m being placed at Virginia Theological Seminary as a visiting professor of history and theology. 

B:            Amazing. 

H:           Could not be more excited.

B:            This is incredible. Let’s let the listeners take a moment to digest. 

H:           The bad news …

B:            Well, first well, first, celebrate. Like, this is amazing. This is a dream come true. This is everything that we want for you. 

H:           Totally. So I’m teaching church history and theology and … all the good things. 

B:            Amazing.  And, I mean, you’ll come back as a guest host …

H:           Obviously. 

B:            And, of course, there’s a little bad news. 

H:           That I would have to come back as a guest host. 

B:            So this represents the final, Leaders Way podcast with you as … in full co-host mode. 

H:           This is a season finale, and it’s my grand finale.

B:            Mhmm. Think Era’s tour, like, the seventh finale. That’s what’s happening right now. 

H:           Right. And we’re not leaving you hanging, podcast listeners, because we love you. So we’ve brought in two of our very favorite humans, guest hosts for next season, making their debut today. 

B:            A team. 

H:           A team. 

B:            Yeah. We’re so excited.

H:           No. H team because that’s how we grade here at Yale. I’m pretty sure I’ve given both of them H’s at this point. It’s Whitney and Misty. Welcome.

B:            Welcome. We’re so excited about this.

H:           So excited. I’m honestly just sad that I won’t be here to cohost with y’all. 

Misty:     Me too.

B:            Now would you take a moment and introduce yourself? 

Whitney: Sure. I’ll go first. So my name is Whitney Kimbell Coe. I’m a rising third year MDiv at Berkeley, here at Yale. I’m from Tennessee. You might be able to hear it in my accent. I came to New Haven with my husband, Matt Coe, who teaches special ed, and found a job here, and my two kids who are ages 14 and 11. They’re pretty incredible. And my hopes and dreams for the, you know, for the future are to become a priest in the Episcopal church.

That’s where I’m headed, I hope. God willing. 

M:           Yea, Whitney. 

B:            Welcome, Whitney. 

W:          Thank you.

M:           Love some Whitney Coe. I’m Misty Krasawski. I am a rising third-year, did you say? Is that what we are? 

W:          Yeah. Isn’t that crazy? 

M:           So hard to believe. Almost graduating … I wanna say I’m a second year MDiv. I am not. I guess I’m also a rising third-year student. I have just finally made the move to Connecticut full time, which I’m really excited about, although I still can’t find everything in my new house with my son Nicholas, who is 15 and turning 16 in August. I have left behind several of my children who I’m missing a lot, but so excited to be here in town and feel a little more like I’m home here, and I’m really here all the time. So really grateful to be part of the podcast now, so that’ll be a fun thing. 

H:           Yeah. We should also say, Misty has been on team podcast behind the scenes uploading transcripts and doing some web work, and then Whitney will be a Transforming Leaders intern for the next academic year.

B:            So Team Tennessee is in the house. 

W:          That’s so true- Tennessee! Yeah. Great thanks coming out of Tennessee. 

B:            Well, we’re thrilled to have you both at the table as we celebrate Hannah. So this is our Hannah episode. And, Hannah, you and I were speaking not so long ago that the podcast, ironically, is a place where you and I don’t get to talk about the kinds of things that we’ve spent most of our academic lives or ministerial careers thinking about and actually doing. And so we thought, wouldn’t it be cool if we dedicated a whole episode to you and the things you’re thinking about and have been thinking about in recent memory? And, I think listeners should know by now, but if you’re listening for the first time, Hannah is a theologian and focuses on soteriology. Theology loves very special words for things. 

W:          Can you pause so we can Google? Pause for Google. 

H:           Soter to be saved. So this is the doctrine of salvation. Yes. Which many of us have heard many things about. 

B:            Yeah. This is the serious stuff. So tell us, like, how did you … how did you identify this as your area of focus?

H:           Oh, on accident, like most things. I mean, that’s probably partially true and partially not true. It came to me slowly and not as the first step. I first sort of thought, should I study Dante? Should I study Barth? Should I study the patristics? And I landed on the patristics because you have to pick one. And then I thought, Oh, should I study Augustine? No. Way too much secondary literature. Should I study, you know, some of these other fellows? I landed on the Cappadocians because they have a really great sense of mystery and then within the Cappadocians, I had to pick one. So I just kind of ended up with Gregory, and then the doctrine of salvation came after that narrowing process. So I actually can’t even remember why I ended up with the doctrine of salvation. But what I can say is I certainly grew up hearing things in church that were totally different from what I found in the patristics.

               And when I got much further along in my research and then feminist theology from sortof as recently as the nineties also came into play in the sort of research conversation. I developed language for understanding why Greek patristic soteriology, or the way Gregory of Nyssa, a fourth-century bishop theologian, talks about salvation. Why is that so different from what I heard in church growing up? And why does some of what I heard in church growing up bug me? And the feminist theology gave me some really good words for that.

               Like, Oh, well, sometimes it glorifies violence and suffering, or maybe someone who’s an abuse victim or a victim of systemic oppression might hear in what I thought were, like, the normal ways to talk about salvation that they should be carrying their cross or laying down their life or generally just, like, being a doormat and accepting any suffering in life as positive. That … I thought, Oh, there’s something really icky about that. I think I think that’s wrong on, like, a in-my-bones level. Level. But, don’t these atonement theories teach that? Isn’t that the way you have to tell the story? 

               And I wanna throw it back to you, but just so that people know kind of what I’m even maybe talking about, particularly in Paul’s letters in the New Testament, there are certain images that get floated for the way salvation works. And you might describe it like a courtroom, and God is the judge, and Jesus is– You’re guilty, but Jesus is paying your sentence for you or, like, being punished for you. “Punished” being a word that’s related to penal, the the “for you” being a substitution. So there’s a whole theory of atonement or salvation called penal substitutionary atonement, and that’s a lot of what you’re gonna be hearing in certain strains of Christianity, particularly more evangelical contexts really like penal substitutionary atonement. There are other metaphors Paul uses. Debt, like, you owe a debt to God because you’ve fallen short, and so Christ is going to pay that debt for you with his death. It’s very focused on God’s death. 

               But then with Gregory of Nyssa, as well as with a lot of other pre-modern writers, the attention isn’t just on Paul and the focus isn’t on bringing biblical metaphors into something a lot more codified as a theory. So Gregory of Nyssa might talk about how healing or marriage are ways you could talk about salvation, not just the judicial system or a debt. And you can feel the difference in those metaphors and how they would preach really differently and then how you might leave the church feeling different about who you are, what you’re made for, what you’re supposed to do, how you’re supposed to feel. So that was long winded, but I wanted to make sure I framed what we were talking about. 

W:          Oh, that’s beautiful. 

B:            I mean, the strength of, seems to me, certain evangelical approaches or fundamentalist approaches is that they’re they have all the questions answered. And the system has really thought of everything. And it like, when you stand inside of it, everything functions really well. There’s an answer. And I wonder what that was like for you in those first moments of beginning to access other ways from the tradition. It’s not like you were reaching from other theories of salvation from outside the tradition. But you were … you were critiquing your inheritance of the tradition from the tradition, which is … I’d love to hear you reflect a little bit on that. But at the feeling level, what was that like to initially feel like, maybe there’s another way to think about this? And am I even allowed to critique what’s been passed along to me by people who loved me and I trusted and, you know, my church family? 

H:           That’s a really good question. I … so by the time I started formally critiquing these things, I felt really comfortable doing it. But that was preceded by a lot of anger and angst and confusion when I was an undergraduate doing my biblical and theological studies degree. So that’s not dissimilar from what a lot of your peers, Whitney and Misty, experience when they come to divinity. It’s their first divinity degree, and there’s this, like your mind just breaks a little bit. There’s a lot of cognitive dissonance as you bump up against stuff that wasn’t part of your system, and the system’s important because it’s the one that’s the most meaningful for you. 

               But, you know, I sensed in my more evangelical background, and I—that word is so slippery, but it’s maybe the best catch all for this. I felt like there was a lot of fear and a lot of unwillingness to ask the harder questions, and that made me really, really frustrated. And then when I came across Gregory of Nyssa and friends, they had this approach that was, like, God is this holy mystery. It’s not unlike Barth where, like, God is this holy mystery and unapproachable to a certain extent because I’m a finite creature. And for the Cappadocians, that means that my intellect and my language can only ever get so close to describing God. 

               So there’s one, piece from GK Chesterton’s book, Orthodoxy, that I love, where he talks about how the … it’s this image of two different people, and one person tries to fit all of the heavens into his mind and his head explodes. But then, I think it’s the philosopher, the theologian or something, this other character just wants to peek his head up into the clouds and take it in and look around. And can’t capture it in his mind, but that’s that’s the appropriate way to approach even thinking about God and talking about God. 

               So that is very freeing for me, but it’s also … there’s a paradox there because I’m saying, no. No. Think beyond these horizons. And then I’m also saying, but you cannot.

B:            I love that. And I wonder, in this approach, it sounds like there’s a lot of humility that’s involved. And you both have had Hannah in a classroom, I think. Right?  And so I wonder how what you’re hearing now connects with the style of teaching that you’ve experienced in the classroom from Dr. Black. 

M:           I love that. I think I saw that the most when we had a section together. So you were in charge of what was to be a conversation. And in many other settings, it is not always a complete conversation. Do you know what I mean? Sometimes you have someone who will get up there and want to kind of lecture a little bit on their own, and sometimes it’s a stalled, you know, question-and-answer kind of situation. But I loved your section, Hannah, because we would come into the room and you would just write on the board, What is the Holy Spirit? And then we would talk about it for an hour, and it was amazing. And I think that idea that other people in the room can see aspects or have a perspective on God that we don’t have ourselves because we can’t, because we are all finite and situated in some place, does kind of describe and embody that humility that you’re talking about that we see in Gregory’s writing and a lot of the patristics. Thank goodness … Who seem very non evangelical in their uncertainty. Uncertainty. Yes.

W:           Yeah. I always felt like you were inviting us to make that leap or to peek a little bit, to peek into, yeah, the story of salvation. I remember very clearly being in one of your groups and that was the question on the board. “What is the theory of salvation?” And there was … we ended up talking a lot about our past histories and our, you know, the experiences many of us had had in churches growing up. And there was a lot of pain, I remember, in those conversations too, so we had to make space to hold that and think about that too. So I so appreciated your making that space, holding that space for us. Yeah. 

H:           The uncertainty is so hard for folks, and I think that maybe is even harder than coming up against something you hadn’t– like a new thought that you hadn’t thought or somebody who disagrees. The uncertainty is just so painful. And I feel like we see that in our theologies, and we also see that in our politics. And we just have to be wary when there’s an airtight system. I think the tricky part though is, like, if you’re in an airtight system, there’s nothing left to learn. 

M:           I think the tricky part, though, is that like, if you’re in an airtight system, there’s nothing left to learn. So the uncertainty, like, the acknowledgment of uncertainty is almost the first step to learning anything. 

H:           That’s so true. 

M:           You’re just stuck at the door until you admit that you don’t already know it all. And maybe no one does.

H:           I know. That’s the thing. That’s the thing. 

W:          And for those of us, you know, at Yale, I think we walk in the door thinking we need to know all of the things already, or at least, you know, the heavy-hitting stuff. But actually what I found in divinity school at Yale is it is this exploration and invitation to be vulnerable with what you think you know and maybe don’t fully know. 

               I’m also thinking about, I don’t know if anybody’s seen Conclave yet. 

H:           Tis the season for a rewatch. 

W:          Tis the season for a rewatch and no spoilers here if you haven’t. But, you know, Conclave, of course, features a cardinal who is trying to wrangle all of these other cardinals through the conclave to get them to vote for, you know, the next pope. And one of the questions that he puts to them or well, actually, it’s in a homily that he gives to these cardinals. He says, you know, I pray that we will elect someone who doubts. I pray that we will elect someone who is not always certain because certainty is the enemy of a lot of things. 

 

H:           I think he even says certainty is the enemy of … 

W:          Of unity, maybe. Of yeah, and community. I take that to mean in some ways community. So thinking about your teaching style, Hannah, and your invitation was always and has always been to dialogue and think through these things together. 

M:           Yeah, because I don’t … never at the end of a section did you say, “And now I’m going to tell you.”

H:           No way. No way. Never. I’m not gonna ruin the game for you.

M:           No. It’s too good. The game is the thing. 

H:           Yeah. Yeah.

B:            Yeah. It is one of the grand ironies that certain corners of the Christian family have become so certain when at the end of the day, we’re standing before a mystery that cannot be fully known. Right? And so how is it that in some corners of the Christian family, faith has come to mean certainty?  Having all the answers. Even in Aquinas, and I wonder, Hannah, if this is also the case for Gregory of Nyssa, even at the at the beatific vision, when God willing, we stand in front of God, see God face to face in the in the fullness of the kingdom, God is still a mystery and unknowable. Right? I mean, we know more, I suspect. Right? We see clearly as if in, right, face to face, not as if in a mirror as Paul said. But for Aquinas, you you never fully exhaust the mystery of God even in heaven. 

H:           For Gregory, you never even stop growing or becoming holier even in heaven …which is so compelling. 

(All)        Wow.

H:           So I think the way I imagined it growing up is and I will say one of the best, this is a class that neither well, you were sort of in. Misty wouldn’t have been in the room. One of Teresa Morgan and my students last semester said, “I went into this room thinking that salvation was about getting into heaven. And now I see that salvation is about heaven getting into us.”  And I was like, that’s it. That’s it right there. 

               Because the way I grew up, I imagined that salvation was, a, about something that happened after I died, was, b, about getting, like, my ticket to the Hogwarts Express or something. Like, was it … it was just, like, a functional one-time, like, you die and you get, like, magic-ed perfect, and then you’re in this place with clouds and angels and harps and, you know, maybe some dogs, maybe not. Scholars differ. And then …

B:            Tell me about the food because if the food isn’t good, I’m not going. 

H:           Oh yeah—it’s an eternal feast …

W:          The basic you know the basic construction we have of it, doesn’t sound that exciting to me. I hope there’s more. 

H:           No and then there’s like the songs, I was at, like, “It’s a big, big house” you know. So, like, this is what was in my imagination. But with Gregory of Nyssa, your dying is just kind of like … it’s not a major plot point in the salvation. It’s, like, happening right now, a little bit, a little bit, a little bit, a little bit more. You die. It’s gonna keep happening a little bit, a little bit, a little bit, a little bit more. And then even for eternity, I am a creature. I never become God. Yes. But I become more and more godlike in can you imagine, like, an asymptote in math where the line gets closer and closer and closer? 

B:            Hoping you were gonna say an asymptote.

H:           That’s what it is for Gregory of Nyssa. You’re always getting more perfect and more like God and more like love and justice and truth. And so you never have to be in an airtight, bored system. You get to be curious for the rest of time. You get to be growing for the rest of time. You get to become more beautiful for the rest of time. And that just gives you …

M:           That sounds a lot better. 

H:           Totally. Totally. Totally. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. That’s … it’s not a a vision where you get bored. And it’s also not a vision with a lot of details because we just don’t have a lot of details.

W:          What does that in your description, how you know, even after death, you’re still growing and growing into salvation. But what about now? What does Gregory of Nyssa say about this moment in front of you? 

H:           Yeah. Kinda same thing. You have an opportunity to grow in virtue. You might ask, well, if it’s not about getting your ticket to heaven, then what’s the point of being a Christian? And that’s kind of an interesting question. There’s one text where Gregory has this image of pulling a rope through a hole in the wall, and the rope is caked in tar. Kind of a random image. But … so you’re yanking this rope through a hole in the wall and the tar is stopping it. So the tar has to be, like, peeled off. Scraped off. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And so for Gregory, having a lack of faith or love or hope is like having a lot of tar on your rope. And that tar is gonna go away whether it’s before or after you die, but it’s easier to do it now.

And it’s gonna suck a little bit if you just keep, like, racking up your rope tar. This is not a Pauline metaphor. 

W: So you spend your life pulling on it at all and trying to scrape it off.

H:           So, you know, we’re presented with opportunities to be sanctified every single day, and we make these choices in life about what kinds of people we’re gonna be and also what kind of relationship we’re gonna have with God and with our neighbor and even with ourself. And all of that matters for Gregory. But it’s not because–if I can kind of refer to one of our other historical theology bros. It’s not because you’re being dangled over a pit like a spider and God might just let you go into the burning flames. Gregory does say that that kind of a thing could motivate you to love God, to look to God, but it’s, like, not his preference.

               He says that beauty and love should be what causes you to desire God rather than fear, if at all possible. 

M:           I like that idea a lot better. 

B:            I mean, we’ve had lots of adventures over the past couple years, Dr.  Black. One of my favorite memories has been team-teaching a little workshop on contemplative prayer and helping clergy develop their prayer lives amid, I mean, amazing amounts of responsibility and, demographically, some real burnout, that that we see across the board. And, you said something about Gregory of Nyssa and prayer that I am still thinking about. And I’m wondering if you could could bring that back. I have questions about this. But can you can you remind us about Gregory of Nyssa’s teaching on prayer, specifically about how we are praying from the place of Christ. Did I get this right?

H:           So, yes … but that’s Rowan Williams. That’s Rowan Williams. But it’s probably Rowan Williams reading Gregory of Nyssa or something, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we talked about this a bit in both of your systematic sections as well, but there’s a Trinitarian order to prayer that we don’t always think of and we don’t always, like, teach to children very specifically or even, follow ourselves. But, really, what’s happening when you pray is you’re praying to God the father, otherwise known as the first person of the trinity. You’re praying as someone who is part of the body of Christ, and you can understand Jesus teaching the disciples how to pray with the Lord’s prayer as a Salvation with Hannah

 teaching about what it means to pray with Jesus, the son of God, who is also fully God, and to pray with Jesus to the father. And then what’s also happening is the Spirit of the Lord is involved. So all three persons of the trinity, who are all the one God, are involved in the prayer. And you’re not really ever praying to the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is the one empowering, sanctifying, and I sort of imagine almost like delivering the prayer. Christ is, you know, praying in you and you in him, and all of this prayer is directed toward the father, the creator, the first person of the trinity.

               Now do I understand that? I mean, I just said it, so yes, but also no. And I’m kind of back to the, like we’re back to the head in the clouds versus the clouds in the head. So, you know, it’s not that anyone needs to feel worried that their prayer is invalid because they prayed to the Holy Spirit or something like that. But I do think it’s kind of beautiful, and it helps understand … it helps to understand what’s going on in your prayer and that you’re really being held in the trinity, almost like dancing with the trinity each time you pray, whether or not you’re thinking about it. 

W:          That’s really helpful. That’s maybe one of the first times I’ve actually heard that articulated. So thank you, Hannah, for continuing to teach, as you sit here. And I’m just thinking about a lot of the collects we say. 

H:           Yes. So each one is formulated exactly like this. Yeah. You pray to God, the first person of the trinity, and you might even invoke some qualities of God that relate to the thing that you’re praying for, like “Almighty and everlasting father.” And then you might ask for something, and then you’re going to pray through Jesus Christ and the power of the spirit. So the Book of Common Prayer kind of subtly teaches us, gently teaches us if we pick up on it. 

WA:        I just noticed too that, a lot of the extemporaneous praying that I’ve been invited to do since I’ve been here at Yale Divinity as a, you know, whether it was in a CPE unit, clinical pastoral care, or, you know, just on the fly at a community dinner, my extemporaneous praying skills have been informed by a lot of this practice with the Book of Common Prayer, and I didn’t realize I was doing that formula you just pointed out. And now I have chills thinking about it, so thank you. Yeah. 

M:           Hannah, I wonder, we were talking about that humility and how you have had this opportunity to, you know, like, be interacting with students. And I’m curious as you look forward to being a professor and being so busy this fall, what has changed for you in the way you think you’ll approach teaching compared to what you were thinking when you graduated? 

H:           Oh, that’s a really good question. You know, the most honest answer is that all of this sort of patristic/feminist everything in my head combined with my own undergraduate education that was very socratic makes it so that my impulse is always to do what you two were describing, which is ask a question and get everybody to learn from each other, which also, by the way, you’re learning theology in those moments, but you’re also learning critical thinking skills, communication skills, listening skills ..

W:          Compassionate skills that we could all use in America. 

H:           Yeah. I think one of my class rules for you all was, like, Love your neighbor With several sub points. Like, look him in the eye, get off your phone, do the reading. All of this is loving your neighbor. But I think I’ve been challenged to, like, sometimes in the classroom and reflecting on my teaching style, but sometimes even in conversations outside the classroom with some of my colleagues who are more experienced than me and team teaching with more experienced colleagues and whatnot, I think my challenge is to own my own voice and authority more and more and more.

               Because I do have this vision of the world where, like, god could speak through anyone. It could be the student I don’t expect. It could be, like, I don’t know, whatever. So why would I take up all the air in this room? Like …  That bores me. And so I think that’s what’s changed ever so slightly is I’m starting to realize that the way I hold myself as an authority figure … I always wanted to comport with this vision of humility and all the sort of, feminist impulses I have to not be just, like, a lone talking head in the front of a room. But also there’s, like, a but-also that I think I haven’t quite cracked. 

B:            As we close out this section of the of the podcast, I wonder when you’re teaching, you know, five minutes before you begin, is there something in your mind that you think, at the very least, I want them to know this? Right? Do you have this exercise? 

H:           Yeah. But it’s not a piece of knowledge. It’s a sense of wonder about God and each other and a sense of increased love and understanding among each other. 

M:           So good. Who taught you that? Where did that come from? 

H:           Gregory. 

M:           I love that. Okay. That’s great.

H:           I think it was Gregory. I mean, I think it was a lot of people, but, definitely, Gregory had something to do with it. 

B:            Well, thank you for your teaching ministry So among us.

H:           Also, CS Lewis in, The Abolition of Man. He has so the image from that book that really sticks with me is he talks about how everybody’s going around saying the task of an educator is to cut down jungles, like, get people to rein it in. And he says, no. No. No. The task of an educator is to irrigate deserts. And I always think of that when I’m sort of approaching a classroom and a group of minds who maybe are sure about God, and I wanna kind of trouble that. Test that. Or maybe are bored with God, and we could fix that, or maybe are troubled about God, and we can ease that. It’s a thing of irrigating.

               And since we’re talking about CS Lewis, I’ll tell you just one more image that I think was a turning point for me in thinking about salvation, which is in The Great Divorce, which is sort of like his more approachable paraphrase of The Divine Comedy is how I feel about that book. And he talks about … the people are, like, getting off the bus. They’re experiencing this heavenly realm, and their bodies aren’t fully solid, which is genius informed by, like, an Augustinian and patristic idea of sin, that sin is, you know, dearth rather than evil substance, because there’s no such thing as evil substance. (Nerd rant for those who follow for those who don’t even worry about it. 

B:            Privation alert.

H:           Yes. Privational alert. So they get off the bus, they start walking on this grass, and their bodies aren’t fully solid, but the grass in this heavenly place is like diamonds, like, so substantive. So it hurts them, which is interesting. It’s another instance of pain, almost like the tar.

And that’s … they can choose to kind of, like, become substantive themselves and find home in this place, or they can choose to turn away. And that, I think, is just really interesting. 

B:            Well, in celebration of your teaching and your ministry and your erudition and all that you’ve accomplished, we have created just for today, one time only, a special game, a golden retriever game, in your honor. Because, upon coming here, we discovered that you can do nearly anything that we threw at you.

H:           That’s very kind. 

B:            Social media and email marketing and content creation and teaching systematics, and the list just went on and on. Events. Right? And so we’re calling this game, Yes You c-Hannah. Yes, you can.

H:           Yes, I can-a. 

B:            So this is a game with Hannah puns. It’s a trivia game, and so each of us have three questions.  Whitney has the first three questions, and you’ll be guessing what Hannah-based pun is the correct answer to each question. 

H:           Okay. I cannot wait. 

B:            Well done. 

M:           Oh my gosh. Well, here we go. 

W:          Oh, man. And if these are bad, it’s Brandon’s fault. But if they’re but if any of these are really good, I’ll  take the credit. 

B:            There’s a high dosage of bad puns here.

H:           Okay. Okay. Okay. Yes. The author will be clear.

W:          Are you ready? Alright. Which pun deliciously combines doctor Black’s first name with a popular grilled sandwich allegedly invented right here in New Haven? So your name combined … 

H:           Han-burger?

B:            It’s the han-burger. 

H:           The han-burger. 

W:          Yeah. Well done. Excellent. She’s on this already. 

B:            Well done. She’s on this. 

W:          Second question. 

H:           This is so funny. 

W:          Dr. Black is not a sociopath. 

H:           Thanks. Thanks for … 

M:           Thanks for clarifying.

B:            We’ve set the bar very low. 

W:          Dr. Black is not a sociopath, but this pun for doctor Black’s first name references a famous fictional doctor and murderer from the film Silence of the Lambs. 

H:           Hannibal Lecter. 

B:            Yeah. Well done.

W:          Well done. Wow. 

B:            Two points. 

M:           That’s great. Who you’re nothing like, of course.

H:           Thank you. Thank you. I try.

W:          You’re not a sociopath. 

M:           That low bargain. 

W:          Okay. And my last question here, building on the Hannibal Lecter theme. Hannibal Lecter was a psychiatrist. What’s a pun based on Dr. Black’s first name, which is another word for psychiatrist? 

B:            The thinking is happening …

W:          Another word for a psychiatrist. 

B:            It’s kind of an older word. Like, Sigmund Freud might have called himself this.

M:           A hana-lyst? 

B:            Well done. 

H:           Go, Misty. 

W, M, H:               A psycho … how about a psycho-hanalyst?

B:            We’re gonna give that one to you too. Three points. 

H:           What time of day were you coming up with this? Yeah.

B:            It was after …

W:          I’ve honored to have gotten to read them.

B:            It was after Silence of the Lambs. 

M:           Oh, dear. 

W:          Let’s keep going. 

M:           Okay. We must. Okay. This pun for Hannah’s name plays on a controversial medical ethics term related to ending life. What is it? 

W:          Read it again. 

M:           This pun for Hannah’s name plays on a controversial medical ethics term related to ending life. Oh. What is it? You probably have it. 

H:           Go Whitney, go. The chance … 

W:          Well, I’m trying … euthan … han … asia? 

M:           I think you have to say han-asia.

W:          Youth-han-asia …

M:           Moving on. And I’m not sure this is better. After a night of partying with Dr. Black, you might wake up with this pun featuring Dr. Black’s name. What is it?

H:           A Hanover.

M:           Yeah. Yes. Number three, it feels rather dystopian these days, in case anyone hasn’t noticed. This pun mixes Dr. Black’s name with a famous dystopian novel by George Orwell. What is it? 

H:           Fair-han-heit? 

W:          Oh, I’ve got it. I’ve got it. Can I say it? 

H:           Yes, please.

W:          Hannibal Farm. 

M:           Marvelous. That’s brilliant. 

B:            Well done. 

H:           Bring us home, Brandon. 

B:            Oh, gosh. My guest host. Okay. The final three. 

H:           Glad I have extra backup for this. 

B:            Just because her name is Doctor Black doesn’t mean she dresses like Darth Vader. This pun takes inspiration from the famous Jedi Knight from the Star Wars saga. What is it? 

H:           So … Obi Wan Hanobi? 

B:            Oh. Wow. You made a new one. I think you get a point nonetheless. Not the … not the answer we were thinking. 

M:           Han Solo?

H:           Hanakin Skywalker. 

B:            Hanakin Skywalker. 

M:           You could’ve gone so many directions here, Brandon!

B:            That was expansive.

M:           Ex-phansive?

H:           The possibilities are … 

B:            Okay. A theological one. Okay. Dr. Black, we all know you’ve thought quite a bit about soteriology and eschatology. This pun on your first name describes a figure who is prophesied to oppose Jesus and claim to be a savior, often appearing shortly before the semi second coming of Christ.

H:           The Hantichrist. 

B:            The Hantichrist. 

W:          Your face! 

M:           She knew.

B:            And finally, Dr. Black, you’re taking your place among the ranks of other great doctors who are also authors, as you will be shortly, namely Doctor Seuss. 

H:           The first doctor I think of. 

B:            Oh the places you’ll go, Hannah. This breakfast-based Doctor Seuss classic was ded-

H:           Green Eggs and Han.

B:            Green Eggs and Han. Oh, that was … You won your own trivia contest. 

H:           It feels good. 

B:            Yes, you, C-hannah. 

M:           We need to make a poster of this. I feel it’s really important. 

H:           You know what it reminds me of is in Toy Story, like, 18, what’s the last one? Four. 

M:           Something like that. 

H:           Yeah. There’s the little Canadian action figure who goes, yes, you, Canada. 

B:            So well done. That’s great. In order to commemorate this momentous moment, we thought we’d do a round of Holy Cow. 

H:           Holy cow, a game inspired by our favorite winged ox, Saint Luke, to remind us that all of us glorious, glorious voices are fully human. 

B:            Wow. 

W:          That’s amazing.

B:            Wow. It’s like you said that before, but never with that much passion, drama, I’m nervous. If I have to say that next time. 

H:           Alright. Brandon, you first. The listeners want to know, what’s your favorite snack? 

B:            Oh, favorite snack? Fresh figs would be the … my preference. 

W:          Oh my gosh. Really? No kidding. I’ve only been in this room for, like, forty-five minutes, and I know so much about you. 

B:            However, in a pinch, I’ll take an unsalted cashew.

H:           Yeah. You will. He keeps them in his car. Yeah. 

B:            Five pounds of them.

H:           Whatever. Okay. I don’t know. Something just really tickled me about the moment. He’s in the passenger seat, and we were headed to a meeting at Saint John The Divine. You’re like, “want some car cashews?” 

M:           Car cashews? There they all are. 

W:          Fueled. The car was fueled. The people were fueled. Yeah. Okay. Random job you’ve had. 

B:            Oh, I, scrubbed toilets at the the neighborhood gym. Wow.

H:           From toilets to theology, a memoir. The weirdest thing in your fridge. 

B:            Oh, you know, it’s not weird, but it’s unusual. And that is we have had a Claire’s Lithuanian coffee cake frozen in our freezer for three months. I pulled it out to defrost, and it’s waiting for me right now. 

M:           Oh, that’s very exciting.

H:           Have you done it before? Do they freeze well? 

B:            I’ll let you know. 

M:           I would think it would, because it’s dense. Right? 

B:            Right. That’s what I’m thinking. 

H:           It’s like Christmas cookies. Okay. Bad habit you’re willing to share. 

B:            I’m a pre-crastinator. So I do things … Too far in advance. 

H:           What? No. No.

W:          Oh, no. No. That’s sortof like saying, “I care too much.”

H:           That’s like when Molly James was here. And she said, like, “I read mystery novels.” And I was like, “I’ll accept it for the sake of the game, but no.”

B:             Okay. I also rush sometimes, and I watch no small amount of trashy reality television.  Because that’s the one … she was gonna give me a look until I gave her that answer. 

H:           Oh my goodness. Have you added one? 

B:            I added one in your honor. 

H:           Favorite Disney movie. 

B:            Okay. My favorite Disney movie is Tangled, but the runner-up …

H:           Excellent answer.

B:            I’m gonna forget the name of it because I’ve only seen it once and it’s still great because it has a guitar in it.

H:           Coco. 

B:            Coco. It’s Coco. 

H:           I was right the first time. I love that. 

B:            Because the guy who designed Coco’s guitar designed my guitar. 

M:           What? 

B:            Yes. I bought this guitar used. It’s 30 years old now. And he went on to become famous and designed the Disney guitar. 

M:           That’s amazing. 

W:          That’s a good story.

H:           I’m gonna go home and watch that too.  

W:          Remember Me–That song makes me cry. 

B:            But I guess not enough to make me remember the title of the movie.

H:           All right. Whitney. What’s your favorite snack? 

W:          Once you pop, you can’t stop.

M:           Is that Pringles? 

W:          Do you know that one? Once you pop, you can’t … Pringles. 

M:           Pringles. I love Pringles.

B:            Yeah. Do you have a favorite flavor?

W:          It’s so true. Yeah. Sour cream sour cream and onion. 100%. 

H:           Oh yeah. Correct. 

W:          The whole can. 

H:           That’s awesome. A random job you’ve had.

W:          I was about to say, like, being an MDiv student. It feels like it’s like …

H:           That is your random job.

M:           Well, here we are. 

W:          A second career. Yeah. This is not the job I anticipated, but it’s it’s lovely. 

H:           What’s the weirdest thing in your fridge? 

W:          My car keys. I have frequently people I lose my car keys all the time, and my youngest, my 11 year old Susanna, Hannah, Susanna, will often call out, “Look in the refrigerator.” And I’ve often left them … There they are. In the refrigerator. 

H:           Nice. I was just at Tina Fey and Amy Poehler’s comedy tour, and they talked about leaving their keys in their fridge. So you’re in great company. Oh, that’s good. That’s really good. Bad habit, and you can’t say putting your keys in your fridge. 

W:          Oh, this one’s kinda serious. It is a habit I wanna break, and it’s apologizing a lot. Like, just, you know, I’m saying I’m sorry for, you know, tripping or saying something silly or …  generally taking up space. That’s definitely a habit worth worthy of breaking.

H:           Favorite Disney movie? 

W:          Oh, gosh. Gosh. I love Tangled. The fact that I mean, when you said Tangled, I was like, I forgot about Tangled, and that is a really beautiful movie. Those lanterns, the … Yeah. I think I’m gonna go with Tangled. 

H:           Yeah. Strong choice.

B:            Misty. Yes. Your go to snack. 

M:           Hershey bars with almonds. I love them. 

W:          Those are delicious. 

B:            Awww my grandmother always had them and I would go visit my grandmother and I would always eat them. I haven’t had them in so long. Yeah. So that’s a fun one. Random job. 

M:           Okay. So I grew up in Nebraska. And Nebraska is full of wide open skies and cornfields. And so as a teenager, I did corn detasseling, and that was where we would show up early, early, early in the morning, and it would be very cold in the mornings, in the middle of the summer for about four weeks. And we would all truck in, all of us teenagers, with our, like, lunch boxes and a gallon of water, which I’ve just realized might be why I hate drinking water now because I had summers of, like, tepid water. Anyway, so we would we would, at, like, six in the morning, head out and we would ride on the back of these machines. So corn has to have the puffy thing that sticks out of the top, those have to be pulled out. It helps with pollination or something. And so that was a very typical job and it paid pretty well for teenagers. 

W:          How many hours a day were you doing? I feel like we went about five or six hours. It was very hot and sweaty and, like, your hands–corn can cut you like a paper cut only worse. So you would, you know, sometimes wear gloves and it was a whole thing. I would not do it again or recommend it, but here we are. 

W:          Way less romantic than, like, the hair..  It was yellow as corn from Into the Woods. If y’all are familiar with that. 

B:            Weirdest thing in your fridge? 

M:           The weirdest thing in my fridge is the fact that my fridge is so clean right now. I’m just gonna say that because we’ve just moved in. And so there’s nothing very interesting in there, but it’s very bright and white and lovely right now. So that’s a weird thing about it. 

B:            Full of hope. 

M:           Full of hope. That everything will stay organized. Yeah.

B:            Bad habit you’re willing to share. 

M:           I think one of my worst habits is I always think I can do one more thing before I head out the door. Do you know what I mean? So then I tend to you know what I mean? I can, like, empty the dishwasher. I can go put on that sweater. I can go fix my something, do something, and then it tends to make me late. 

B:            I love that one.

W:          Very self aware. 

M:           Favorite Disney movie? Beauty and the Beast. 

W:          Oh, I could totally see that. 

M:           Yeah. It’s my favorite. 

B:            And smallest hill you’ll die on. 

M:           I love the Oxford comma. And it should never go away.

W:          Oh okay.

H:           Amen. Amen. 

B:            Yeah. Agreed. Who’s not using the Oxford comma? 

M:           I know. It’s so necessary. 

H:           Journalists … Heathens.

M:           Same. 

B:            People. 

H:           Oh, I have one more for you. Favorite Disney park? Oh, gosh. I’m gonna say Magic. Yeah. Very closely followed by Epcot. Like, really this close.

H:           Yeah. Mhmm. Excellent. Good to know. 

B:            Okay. Dr. Black. Favorite snack?

H:           Any kind of fruit. A banana, an apple. An orange, a pear, strawberries. The best, though, is fresh berries. Fresh berries. They’re so expensive with fresh berries when you’re not in a berry place. 

B:            Yeah. I hope I hope for more berries for you. 

H:           That’s my caviar—like, raspberries and blackberries. 

B:            Good to know. People, if you if you’re considering a gift, a congratulatory gift for Dr. Black, send blackberries. Random job. 

H:           Obviously, dancing at Disneyland for three years in Mickey’s Soundstational Parade, Fantasmic, and A Christmas Fantasy.

M:           That’s insane. That’s why she’s my hero for real. 

B:            That was just the sound of every listener’s head exploding if they weren’t tracking that.

H:           I think … I counted at the end. I think I had 35 roles. 

B:            Wow. Amazing. 

H:           Mostly simultaneously.

B:            Do you have anything in your fridge?

H:           I do. I do.

M:           Hopes and dreams. 

H:           Good vibes! No. The best thing right now is actually in my freezer, and it’s store-bought Dole Whips, which is another Disney reference for those … 

M:           Where did you find them?

H:           … with Mouse ears to hear. Stop and Shop.

B:            Dole Whip. Do you wanna describe that for … 

H:           Yeah. It’s a pineapple soft serve. It’s a … like a cult following in the Disney parks. 

W:          There’s a hashtag. 

B:            There’s a hashtag for it. Okay. Bad habit you’re willing to share with the world. 

H:           Probably my, like, my couch rot moments. I recently gave Misty my old couch as I’m leaving, and she’s coming to “the Have”, as I like to call. And I said to her, this is like, it’s not so much kneel where prayer has been valid. It’s to let me relax where couch rot has been. I go go go go go so hard in my regular life and on weekdays that on a Saturday, I’m gonna sit on the couch and I am not gonna move until I, like, get antsy. And then in my mind, and this can’t be healthy or correct, I’m like, “Now I’m recovered.” So when I text you and I’m like, I’ve had a nervous system reset, that that’s what happened. I just played, like, six hours of a video game like a teenager. 

M:           Oh, that’s great. Perfect. That’ll do it. 

B:            Love that. Let’s see. A favorite Disney movie. 

H:           Okay. My actual favorite of all time is Lion King. And independent of this conversation, my second favorite and very, very, very close is Tangled.

W:          Why do you love Tangled so much? 

H:           I love her. 

W:          Yeah. She’s so great.

H:           I do … I will say I love what Disney has been doing in the last couple decades with the princess genre. So the fact that Rapunzel is like, “I’m my own person. I’m creative.” I share some things with her. I’m a collector of hobbies. Yeah. Gosh. Yeah. Yeah. I think she’s like she’s a character who is fun and role model-ish, sufficiently role model-ish.

W:          Mhmm. And she has, like, so much wonder. I mean, obviously, she would after being, you know, being holed up in a tower forever. But, like, when she comes out, everything is just a delight. 

H:           Totally. She also has the best sidekick out of everybody. 

M:           She does. 

W:          I saw a meme the other day that had, the question, do I want the Rapunzel look or the Rapunzel look? And it’s her with the long hair and then her with the dark short hair. 

H:           This is my biggest issue with the movie when it came out. I was like, why did he cut it so short? And I was like, give the woman some options! 

W:          Eugene. Why did you do that? 

H:           Like, actually, you just cut it like a few inches longer. 

B:            Well, thank you, Hannah. We feel like we know a at least a little more about you. This is your moment to for us to say farewell to one another. So, do you have any final …

H:           Or in the words of the mouse, “See you real soon.” 

W:          We’re really leaning into the Disney theme here. 

B:            Yeah. Any final words for our wonderful listeners?

H:           Oh, just thank you for listening. Stick around. Next season’s gonna be fabulous. I don’t feel like I’m going far. It is … it is just kind of a ta ta for now.

B:            Well, thank you for the wisdom and the insight and the humor and being such a great colleague. We’ve had lots of fun together. 

H:           It’s been so fun. 

B:            Yeah. So let’s let’s pray a blessing on Hannah together and pray for this moment of transition and these coming chapters that you are about to write.

               So let us pray. Thank you, God, for the gift that is Hannah. Thank you for her light, her learning, her wisdom, her humor, and her faith. We thank you for the way in which she has enriched this community and made it a more compassionate and wise and loving place, and we pray that you might bless her in her endeavors ahead. Bless her students who will learn so much from her. Bless Griffin and Nelly and all those she loves. May she not only be safe, but ever more radiant, wise, loving, ever more an instrument of your love and peace in the world. And we make this prayer in Jesus’ name. Amen.