THE Father Lizzie is back on The Leader’s Way podcast, talking about her new devotional God Didn’t Make Us to Hate Us. We talk about the alternative to “billboard Christianity” and how an expansive, inclusive God affects individual spirituality and corporate worship in church. Finally, the Golden Retriever Games are back, baby. Stay ‘till the end for “Holy or Horror?”
52: God Didn’t Make Us to Hate Us with Lizzie McManus-Dail
Credits, Transcript
Hosts: Brandon Nappi and Hannah Black
Guest: Lizzie McManus-Dail
Production: Goodchild Media
Music: Wayfaring Stranger, Theodicy Jazz Collective
Art: E. Landino
Father Lizzie’s Book: God Didn’t Make Us to Hate Us
Instagram: @theleadersway.podcast
berkeleydivinity.yale.edu/podcast
You can support our work at https://tinyurl.com/support-transforming-leaders
H: Hey, Brandon.
B: Hannah, how are you today?
H: I’m doing pretty well. I’m really enjoying daffodil season. How are you?
B: Loving my daffodils.
H: Yeah.
B: Yeah. We made a substantial investment in daffodils. We added several hundred more to the yard, and I’m loving it.
H: Several hundred?
B: Mhmm. Yeah. I have a bit of a flower bulb addiction.
H: Could you please send me a text message with a photograph of these several hundred daffodils?
B: Well, you know, I think, like, you know, I want them to be dramatic. I want them, like, as folks walk by not to see, like, one or two, but, like, a substantial statement of the victory of spring.
H: Like a sea of yellow.
B: Yes. And I also like to be able to cut them and bring them inside
H: Oh, yeah.
B: And not feel like I’m compromising or
H: Yeah. Yeah. I understand that in a big way. I also noticed that there are these, like, gorgeous, like, full kind of aren’t … like, buoyant looking tulips at the Berkeley Center now.
Oh, you must have not seen the tulips.
B: I have not seen the tulips. No, no, no. In fact, I was thankful to be invited into the, the landscaping planning process and my only 2 cents were “ridiculous amounts of bulbs,” I think was what were the exact words that I used. I don’t know that we got ridiculous, but we got a fulsome.
H: Substantial.
B: Substantial.
H: Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s right. Does that mean there’s like another layer of bulb blooms coming after the daffodils and tulips? I saw kind of something budding and I didn’t know what it was.
B: You know, I don’t have the exact list of bulbs that were planted. I mean, theoretically, there could be more and there are some later- blossoming tulips and later blossoming daffodils that that could be enforced here. We’ll have to see it. It’s the first spring. Right?
H: Okay, so this spring is bringing surprises.
B: It’s surprise. It’s time to surprise.
H: Resurrection core. So speaking of the opulence and beauty of the natural world, our guest today is someone who’s very exuberant herself, and who shares a common interest with us in crafting. My question for you, Brandon, is have you been to any of the Joanne sales? And whether or not you have been, what’s like a paradigmatic craft store haul for Brandon Nappi?
B: Oh, that’s a great question. Well, if I’m feeling particularly special special, which is how I’m feeling most of the time, let’s be honest. I wouldn’t go to Michael’s or Joanne’s, which, you know, means that our hopes of corporate sponsorship have sailed, I guess, just with me saying that. I love going to stars hollow yarn.
H: Oh, that is special. Special.
B: In New Preston. Right? And coming back with more yarn than I’m ever gonna use. But that’s okay. And, like, special expensive yarn. Yeah. But then I get to give away yarn to the people in my life who I know appreciate yarn. So even though I don’t use it, I love giving it away because I don’t keep a stash.
H: Yeah. You’re not … yeah. You’re not a stash person. I do know that about you. I recently got a gift from my friend Jo of some very special- special yarn that she shipped to me all the way from England that’s like Narnia themed, but you wouldn’t know it. It’s very … okay. Hang on. Please hold.
B: Narnia themed yarn.
H: Narnia … Narnia inspired is probably a better way. Beautiful. Grabbing
B: And what is it? Is it wool?
H: Yeah. So I need to decide how I’m going to use it. This one wild and precious yarn.
B: A ball of yarn is so exciting. The possibility … it could be anything.
H: I know. I know. Yeah.
B: Well, you know, what’s kind of cool is that our guest today is, I believe, the first returning guest in Leader’s Way podcast history.
H: Unless you count Andrew, but his first Andrew McGowan’s first episode, he wasn’t actually with us. It was just a recording of a different thing. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it is her–our first return guest. And I love how we’re we have this, like, air of mystery when everyone who clicked on this episode already knows who it is.
B: Oh, you called me out. It’s true. I’m not sure why I was being so …
H: Let me tell you a little bit about the one and only Reverend Lizzie McManus Dale, Vicar of Jubilee Austin, Texas. Lizzie has lived all over the world, and she’s living her dream as the founding planter of Jubilee Episcopal Church. She’s one of the two hosts of And Also With You, an amazing podcast that I am a regular listener to. She has a new devotional out called God Didn’t Make Us to Hate Us 40 Devotions to Liberate Your Faith from Fear and Reconnect with Joy. And stay tuned. We’ll talk a fair bit about joy today.
Lizzie grew up in Chapel Hill, North Carolina as a Roman Catholic. Her mother was ordained in the United Methodist Church. I think, like, as she was graduating high school. Yep. And so that technically makes her a second-generation clergy woman. Lizzie graduated from Mount Holyoke College and Duke Divinity School and then went to Seminary of the Southwest. She and her husband, Jonathan (shout out to Jonathan!) moved to Texas for their jobs in the Episcopal church. Before she was ordained, Lizzie worked in youth and children’s ministry and as a hospice chaplain, all while waiting tables.
Lizzie and Jonathan have two gorgeous daughters. And Lizzie’s got a whole lot of love for her people who are both in person in Austin, Texas at Jubilee, and also in the thousands online on TikTok and Instagram. And I …
B: So much love.
H: If there’s such a thing as a TikTok congregation, I’m part of that congregation.
B: Love it.
H: Without further ado.
B: Hi. I’m Brandon Nappi.
H: Hi. I’m Hannah Black, and we’re your hosts on the Leaders Way podcast.
B: A Yale podcast empowering leaders, cultivating spirituality, and exploring theology.
H: This podcast is brought to you by Berkeley Divinity School, the Episcopal Seminary at Yale.
Lizzie, welcome back to the Leaders Way podcast. We’re so so thankful that you’re here.
Lizzie: A treat. An absolute treat.
H: I’ve been, like, vacillating between physically reading in bed, God Didn’t Make Us to Hate Us, and audio booking it. And I, like, secretly audio booking it is even better because you get, like, your sassy intonations
L: Yes.
H: Which are everything, particularly in, like, readings from Genesis. Just love …
L: Thank you.
H: Love it all. For me, I was just telling Brandon this morning, I don’t know how you do it because it’s, like … reading it is like candy, but then all this stuff is, like, so deeply, deeply true. It’s like crisp theological truths that are so accessible and then really, like, joyful and hopeful and just, like, re … recalibrating for me in kind of, you know, tough times.
L: Oh my god. Thank you. Is that what you mean? I feel like we should, put that on the cover. That’s so kind. Thank you so much.
B: Well, I think, Lizzie, it gets the chunky middle award, which is …
L: Thank you.
B: Which is the highest form of praise because it in the Venn diagram, right, it’s got this incredibly rich overlap between deep, academic theology, but also totally practical devotional daily, spirituality. So, that’s what Hannah and I, you know, get excited about. So thank you. Thank you for doing it.
L: Oh my gosh. Thank you. Thank you for, so 100%, both articulating but also just capturing what I was trying to do with this project is really bring so much of … I mean, I feel like we’re in these parallel paths with what y’all are doing with Leaders Way what I do this book and also with you is trying to translate incredible theology that is not on the billboards that I see when I’m driving around Texas or frankly, even New York City, you know, I mean, like, not the reputation that Christianity has.
And I think the reputation that Christianity has currently in the United States is a deserved one of bigotry and close mindedness and cruelty and fear. And so I feel like we’re all out here in this, like, asymmetric love war. War doesn’t seem like that … love kingdom, maybe, trying to uproot that evil, in ways that like someone who’s just literally walking around Barnes and Noble, who’s never heard of the phrase “liberation theology,” but is like desperate for something. Right? Because they’re in the belly of figuring out sobriety or a cancer diagnosis or losing someone they love, like something that is there for them to hang on to that’s gonna be richer and more meaningful than like, “Just be positive in the name of Jesus.”
H: Yeah. Yeah.
L: So thank you. I feel really seen by what y’all said, and it means a lot.
B: Can we hear the story? How did the book happen for you?
L: Oh, my gosh. So it happened in it happened very fast after a long, long season of prayer and yearning. So I have always known that I wanted to write a book. I mean, ever since I was a kid, you know, I said I wanted to grow up and be a dolphin trainer and astronaut and an author. And I’ve achieved one of those. I don’t think the other two are gonna happen.
H: I was about to ask how many of those have happened.
L: The dolphin training, I think definitely not. But my brother works in a zoo incidentally, and, like, taking care of animals is a lot of work that I don’t want to do. Anyways, so I’ve always wanted to be an author and be a writer. And God called me to be a priest, which I will say there’s a lot of things about the priesthood that are, you know, sanctifying and powerful and holy. And one of those things is that it brings me great pleasure and joy to be creative in my job. And I experienced the priesthood as a deeply creative profession and everything from making bulletins, because our bulletins are beautiful at Jubilee, if I do say so myself. I know.
H: I was thinking back to your banner at the diocesan council, and I was like, “Oh, dang. That’s probably a fabulous bulletin.”
B: We need the link to the bulletin. Can you share one to inspire us?
L: Yes. Especially because I know this is the target crowd. So we make ours in Canva. And we incorporate, like, word searches and coloring pages and, like, little, like, Canva clip art throughout the liturgy. So we don’t have a separate bulletin for kids. It’s all for everybody. And let me tell you, the grown-ups love those just as much. And it’s a brilliant way to fold in formation, especially those word searches. So, like, when we’re recording this, it’s Maundy Thursday. So for our Easter vigil bulletin, I have, like, chrism as a word that people are looking for so that they’re like, “Hey, Father Lizzie. What is chrism?” I mean, it’s just too great. Yeah. A great, like, reinforcer and little hook, and it’s, it’s a great way, you know, because you have to do bulletins and divisions of four. And so sometimes you have 11 pages of content. So what do you …? Anyway, so I just … I love being creative. And I love that I got to be a writer, get to be a writer as a priest. But one of the ways that I expressed this creativity was in 2020, I was ordained to the diaconate, which, you know, was a super fun time in the world. We were all having a great time, June 2020.
H: What I remember is, like, singing through … it’s like the scene in The Sound of Music. It’s like singing, skipping, frolicking flowers. Yes. Right? Yeah.
B: We canceled singing. Canceled singing in the Yale Divinity School. Right?
L: Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Canceled singing. So I was ordained. And actually, there was no music in my ordination. Because yeah, exactly. It was supposed to be 1,000 people in this church in Downtown Raleigh, North Carolina. It’s out of the diocese in North Carolina, work in Texas. And then there were 10 of us. Right? The four people, five people getting ordained and are, like, minimum, you know, lay sponsor, pre-sponsor. And so the music that we had were the sounds of the Black Lives Matter protests happening all around the church. And you literally could hear them, both because the sanctuary was that empty. Right? And you could hear what was happening outside, but also because those protests were so large, and so needed. Right? I mean, just such a profound witness of reckoning, and I hope one that we take more seriously.
But, but so deep in this belly of the beast, right, I had graduated from divinity school in 2016. It’s 2020. I’m finally getting ordained. It was a whole process to get there. I was grieving with everybody else. Right? That life was not looking like what we had dreamed. And particularly, I, like, was ordained and then got home and started a job where I put on my collar and sat down at my kitchen table in my one-bedroom apartment and was a priest on Zoom. I mean, it was ridiculous. Like, it was it felt like farcical. Right? And so the one of the things that was giving me succor in the valley at that time was this, a silly little app called TikTok.
H: Yeah. Yeah.
L: Right? And so I download–I’d never downloaded it before. I downloaded it, started scrolling, because what else were we doing but consuming doom content or being that … such a person?
H: Oh my gosh. I needed it during COVID. It, like, made me belly laugh in a time where … yeah. Yes. Continue.
L: No. No. That’s so that’s exactly it. So I, like, saw all these, like, videos of, like, the Italian singing on the balconies and people making sourdough because that had, like, a moment. Right? And the thing that I appreciated about it is that there was, like, this the app had this balance of, like, very deep truth telling, but also lighthearted play. Right. And there were a few clergy who I saw in there, like my dear friend who I podcast with, Mother Laura DePamfalo, who was making fun, sort of lighthearted videos that were lighthearted in medium, but deeply serious in in message. Right? So having a woman twirl around on a chasuble saying, “Hey, God loves everybody.” Really cute. Seven seconds or less.
So it captures the zeitgeist, captures attention of people, speaks in the idiom of the moment, but has, like, a profound disruption. Right? That is, like, interrupting, you know … if you were to scroll through a thousand videos under the hashtag Christian on TikTok, I guarantee you, you would not find
H: Well, it’s like billboard.
L: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It’s like billboard Christianity. So I was like, you know what? I could do that. And so I had always known that I wanted to engage in some sort of public creative ministry. I didn’t think it was gonna be TikTok. I didn’t think it was gonna be so silly and so goofy, so joyful. But that’s exactly what and in many ways, it kinda tapped into, like, 16-year-old theater kid Lizzie, who just got to be goofy, which let me tell you, Lizzie in divinity school, was a little too serious. So, so it was just it was healing for me in a time that was terrible. And a time too when I think all of us preachers, you know, we’d all heard preach from your scars, not your wounds. But what do you do when you’re actively carrying the same wound as your people?
H: Bleeding.
L: Yeah. Exactly. And so the thing that I have always known I’ve needed in the belly of the pit is for God to shield my joy, to amplify my joy, and to and to know that that joy is a sacred form of resilience and resistance because joy is not, like, vapid consumerism, whatever. So I started making these goofy little videos, and again, lighthearted content, serious message. And so I got thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of comments and questions. And while lots of them were, you know, horrible, wolf-in-sheep’s clothing, go kill yourself, all kind you know, all the nonsense of being a woman on the Internet, especially a Christian woman who’s in ordained leadership, far more were people saying, “Wait. What? You mean that the God who I never wanted to walk away from, but whose church burned me?”
Yeah. And I’m not just talking like, “I didn’t like the sermon.” I’m talking like, forced conversion
H: My family disowned me.
L: Like, I don’t feel safe. Like, not just like a feel … like a deep sense of, “I am unsafe in my body and my mind because I have been taught from infancy that these are weapons forged against me by the enemy.” Right? Like, some very deep pervasive toxic bargain bin, you know, billboard theology was what people had experienced Christianity. And so to experience this, like, goofy little moment that I was putting out on TikTok was revelatory. And so I started trying to, as much as I could, engage and answer these comments, whether with videos or in the section, but I realized very quickly that what was needed was a more long-form response.
And a lot of the times people were saying, “Hey, do you have a resource?” Like, I didn’t know that it’s okay to be gay and Christian,” which I think often in more progressive Christian circles were like, gang, we figured that out a long time ago. But like, this is revelatory for the 16-year-old in Cedar Park, Texas, who didn’t know that –that gay priests existed. Right. And so I’d be like, “Well, sure. Here’s this tome that I read in grad school.” Which are fantastic. And they’re …
H: We need them.
L: And there are resources out there. But the number one resource I was asked for was a devotional or a meditation book, like something that people could read, and not just know about God more, but know God better. To pray with God, to walk with God, not just to learn something sort of intellectually even though that can and is spiritually nourishing, something that is designed to be spiritually nourishing and gentle. Right? And not assuming a bachelor’s degree, not assuming a common language.
And so I started dreaming and scheming. And at the same time, I, was pregnant with my first child and actually was approached by a publishing house that said, Hey, would you write a book? And I said, No, which was devastating, because it was my lifelong dream. But I was literally like eight months pregnant. And I knew that not only was I about to have a baby, I was also … then after I had the baby and went back to work going to be planting a church. And I was like, I just … I have to trust that if this is God’s desire for me, God is not a one chance God and is gonna give me another opportunity down the line. And that is what happened.
And so I when my baby was, my oldest baby now was, almost 18 months, I had to that point signed with an agent. And, we had started dreaming, and he had really affirmed–he’s like, the devotional market needs this because the market is so saturated with shallow theology, and there’s such a deep-felt need for something that is richer in theological tone, but also still, like, willing to be on a bookshelf next to Jesus Walks or Jesus Listens or whatever. Right? Like, Jesus Speaks.
So and I was like, yeah.
H: He does all those things.
L: He does. He does do all those things. I’m sure I didn’t even get the right title. Whatever the point is. The point is, is that like, yeah, I’m not I’m not ashamed or, like, daunted by being categorized as a devotional writer. Right? Which I think is part of the problem is that in certain progressive spaces, there’s, like, we don’t wanna be too populist. We don’t wanna be affiliated with those dumb Christians, which is like … Yeah.
H: Yeah. Yeah. Even like the Episcopal Church as a whole, I think we’ve got a learning curve in that direction.
L: A 10000%.
H: Like our pinkies need not be up all the time.
L: Right. Exactly.
H: Lose the pinkies. That’s our message to the Episcopal church.
B: Let me tell you …
L: Oh, oh, go ahead, Brandon.
B: Well, I have a pinkies down kinda question, I think.
L: I’m ready for it.
B: To precisely what we’re talking about, you mentioned joy. And I loved, of course, your reference to Brenè Brown, one of my one of my heroes. Oh, thank you. Yeah. And so you you’re meditating on the vulnerability of joy as a spiritual discipline. So help our listeners understand both of those dimensions. It’s both a discipline. Oh, that’s interesting. I’ve not thought of joy that way. But it’s also vulnerable. Like, could I really give myself permission to feel delight and joy? Right. So those two things are really, interesting juxtapositions. And I don’t know that I hear a lot of folks talking about both discipline and vulnerability around joy. So can you unpack that? Cause that was kind of where my heart went in your book first.
B: Thank you for that, Brandon. I say in the book that joy is the tender underbelly of our connection. And so I’m riffing there on Brené Brown saying joy is the most vulnerable emotion we feel, more vulnerable than shame, than embarrassment, than hurt than anger. Because we fear it’s gonna be taken away. Like, right, how many times have you said in your own life—”Yeah, things are going well, just waiting for the other shoe to drop.”
H: Right. You know, knock on wood.
L: Exactly. Exactly. Oh, she’s sleeping through the night. (knocks) You know? And so I received that actually, I had read that before, but I actually read, Dare to Lead in the same time that I was making these cute little videos on TikTok. And the same time that I got the call from the diocese saying, “Hey. When you’re done with your curacy, you’re gonna be planting a church.” And I was like, “Great. Will we, like, be in person?” Like, like, what’s I was like–we were 1iterally in a leadership seminar on Zoom, like, “We’re gonna be daring leaders here at their dinner break. It was so heartfelt and also such a cosplay at the same time.
And so that line just hit me and with the full, like, divine force of a dream, I was like, my church is gonna be called Jubilee. Like, God gave me that name because it was–it comes from Leviticus 25. And this is– it’s gonna take me a second, but it’s gonna get to this this question, Brandon, of, like, Leviticus 25 outlines, I think, the most, and I’m not the first to think this, but the most profound synthesis of joy and justice in all of scripture. It is God’s joy, God’s pleasure to give God’s people the Sabbath year, this year of complete rest from the land.
But in that rest, there is also restoration for those who are enslaved, for those who have debts, for those who don’t have enough to eat. The–God’s joy is linked with God’s justice, and commanding that everybody find people who are not eating and feed them and free captives and prisoners and all those things. So I sort of felt in this swirl that has unfolded in the year since and unfolded in this book that God’s greatest dream for us is to be connected, which means we have to be vulnerable and trusting that our joy comes from God. And joy is not the same thing as, like, going to Target and buying stuff. Joy is not the same thing even as like, I’m feeling really happy today.
And so this is like, the vulnerability has to be matched with the discipline because I think joy as a spiritual discipline is saying I’m going to look for God’s goodness and mercy and presence, even and especially when I don’t feel it. Even and especially, I’m going to look for God’s joy when I don’t feel happy. Because that is… you know, God walks with us through the valley of the shadow of death. God walks with us in the pit of despair, but God also doesn’t stay in the tomb. And so that’s where we have to be vulnerable and willing to lean into that tender, terrified connection.
And that takes skill and practice and regularity, which is the discipline piece of it. And I think right now in the world more than ever, at least in my lifetime with my particular embodied way of experiencing the world. I think that there is a need to recognize that the only way that we will ever have any kind of life on earth that is like life in heaven is to lean into that vulnerability and discipline of joy.
H: You know, there’s even another … almost like a pushback that Brandon and I see in our ministry sometimes where people think to be tuned in to the greatest problems of the world as a leader in ministry is to take those problems so seriously that if you’re experiencing joy, you’re guilty for it.
L: Yeah. Yeah. Or you’re not taking it seriously, or you’re just checking out, or you’re not you don’t care.
H: Right. Like, oh, you can’t have joy. What about capitalism? What about global warming? What about … well, yeah. What would you say to those folks?
L: Do you tell that to a three-year-old? Like, that’s my serious question. I, like, I think I’ve been gentler in the past and maybe I’m just extra spicy today, but I’m like, this is something that feels so hot for me right now because I acutely feel … I am an out, queer priest in Texas. My church is across the street from the site of a hate crime, that was enacted against a gay black woman. Right? Like, I have been followed by people on motorcycles doing, like, Nazi salutes. Like, this is not some sort of, like …
H: Abstract.
L: It’s not abstract. This isn’t like some happy clappy blah blah blah. Like, it is a deep serious … like there are days this year. I was in only April where I’ve woken up being like, “I don’t know, Jesus, if I can keep serving you and your church this way. This is too scary to me.” And too scary, not for my own life, but for my children. And that and it is my children who keep me grounded because … because they I want to raise them. I we have the privilege to have enough right now. And I want them to know that not everybody does. And I want them to utilize the resources that they have to be generous, justice-seeking, joyful people.
And I also know that Jesus says, “Let the little children come unto me” and that you have to be a child in order to enter into the kingdom of God. And I see how my daughter can, my daughters can hold, I mean, profound despair at this point, the despair is not–thank God–over super serious things, right? It’s like, sorry, honey, you can’t have another yogurt pouch. Right? Right. What a gift that we have such abundance, but they can hold that with like … I mean, we asked my daughter to say the blessing every night at dinner. And it’s always a list of like, the people she loves and then trees and playtime and the sky and this favorite pink cup. I mean, it’s just like, what a discipline of joy that is so natural for her. And I think that if we have any kind of consideration for the quote, unquote least of these, and I too wanna trouble the rhetoric around, like, the people who have been the ones who get to decide who gets ministered to. Right? But if we do have any kind of consideration to lean into the seeking of justice for those who need our allyship and partnership and/or for ourselves, like, then we need to pay attention to how the ends need to be a part of the means. Right? If our seeking of justice is ultimately a seeking of joy and flourishing for all people, then my god, that should be a part of how we get there.
B: Well, I’m so glad you brought up queerness because what the … what the beautiful queer folks in my life have helped me to see are the false binaries
that I’ve inherited, that I just assumed. Right? Like it’s, oh, it’s either joy or it’s pain. Right? But the fullness of life, the fullness of human experience is very rarely, if not, never either or. And so I wonder for you, what difference does queerness make for you and how you do ministry? Or what’s the blessing and gift and key insight that queerness brings into your ministry, so folks can kind of celebrate that and know it and come to find you and experience it.
L: Yeah. I think it is, an embracing of God’s extravagance. You know, we worship a God who did not need to make us, did not need to dream up the butterfly or the dragonfly or mountains or the ocean, or what it means to experience connection with other people. God just chose to. Like, that’s so beautiful and so powerful. And I think, that … queerness, there’s nothing sort of inherent to, like, I wanna be careful about identitarian politics, like saying, “Oh, there’s something essentially true because of this identity.” And yet I’ll say my experience of queerness in the world has made me appreciate extravagant, gaudy, over-the-top beauty and extravagant camp.
Right? Like excessive, love as something that can be profoundly reflective of God. And I also think that there is a reality to the queer experience certainly as I experience it in the South, certainly as I experience it as a Christian, where we not only contain these multitudes, and I wouldn’t say it’s all seamless. Right? It feels actually more seamless inside of me than it feels outside of me.
But there is also this, like, profound, like, capacity to hold the suffering and the longing with the resilience as also beautiful. And the resilience isn’t beautiful because it comes out of necessary suffering, but rather it’s like, “Look look. We’re still here. We’re still thriving even now!” And, like, isn’t that Easter? Like, isn’t that the whole Christian story? Right? Is, is that we don’t stay in the tomb?
And I just think that there’s something you know, my church, our Jubilee, our feast day because we’re not named for a saint, so I just picked the feast day as joy Sunday in Advent, Gaudete, which feels appropriate. You know, I love that Gaudete, joy, is also the same root as gaudy. And, like, there’s just something, you know, sort of profligate and extravagant in that that I think teaches us not that we need to be excessive in terms of, like, capitalist, like, you know, buying a bunch of stuff and the stuff is what gets us joy, but rather it’s like their joy was not made to be a crumb. And, like, I really do come back over and over and over to Jesus saying it is it is your father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. There’s pleasure. There’s joy. There is connection in this. And, and that’s not antithetical to striving for justice. Does that make sense? Is it, like, are you is that an answer?
B: Oh, it totally does. It reminds me what you say at the end of the book. God is offensively generous. Yeah. Oh my god, Lizzie. Thank you for that language. Offensively generous. That’s amazing. Thank you.
L: Oh my god. I preached on the prodigal son recently, which isn’t in the book, and I was like, I really relate to the big brother. And everyone in the room was like, nah, I relate to the younger. And I was like, Oh. Oh, so it’s just me then? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What? How dare God be so kind.
H: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder in your experience of leadership in the church, having this imagination of an offensively generous, gaudy, bubbling over God, how does that God affect the way you lead church? Like, if you think about God differently from the billboards, does church look different? Does being a Christian look different?
L: I certainly experience it that way. I think we embrace a lot of abundance. And in some ways, we I want I always wanna be clear that, like, Jubilee, so we are funded by the Diocese of Texas. So we have this extravagant gift, right? And so I know that you have clergy listening who are like, I don’t want anyone to listen to this and be like, “Oh, I don’t have joy. Therefore, I’m a bad Christian.” Like, that’s not what I’m trying to say. Like, it’s hard. It’s hard. It is hard to be in ministry at any time, and I feel like it’s especially hard right now. And we’re a small church, so I feel that for my kindred, in this vocation.
And so we have a great gift and a great trust, but, also, I think we have this incredible … I choose to see, rather, the luxury of abundance as not a luxury in the sense of, like, only afforded to a few, but, like, a luxury in the sense of, like, God wants us … Like, in Nehemiah chapter eight, God says, “Go eat the fat and drink the sweet wine.” Like, God wants you to have the best things, not because those things are the measure or marker of what wealth or, like, wealth in the kingdom of God is, but rather because God desires the extravagant feast to reflect God’s extravagant love. And so when we start with that in the church, I think that one, it means that we start with a play a posture of gratitude instead of a posture of fear. I think it means that we see challenges as opportunities.
And like, that sounds like some sort of pithy thing. But I really sincerely mean that. And like, one of the jokes I have about Jubilee, so we’re in a little strip mall, which is hilarious, and amazing that we have the space. Right? And we are like Catholic maximalist in a strip mall. So it is like the most unexpected thing, you know, with the chasubles and incense and as more candles than you can count, and we’re in between a dentist and a martial art studio.
L: And Dolly Parton keeps watch over the flocks by night.
L: She sure does. We have a cardboard cut-out of Dolly Parton that I did not put in there. My parishioners did, which tells you, honestly, the best thing about Jubilee is not me. It’s the people.
But, but, like, everything in there is either from churches that close. So we have these gorgeous, like, altar cross and the missal stands that I every you know, when I lift the gospel up to proclaim the gospel, the birth and death dates of the person who it was given in honor for was born–or died before I was born. Right? So, I mean, there’s just, like, such resurrection, right, of all these churches that have closed, we have all these beautiful, like, accoutrement from them. But then we also have, like, IKEA tables. And so there’s this spirit of, like, you could be really, like, we don’t have, you know, all the finer things. So it’s like, no. Just be industrious. Like, just figure it out. Just be creative. Be crafty. Part of why, like, our bulletins to circle back have all the, like, kid pages in there is that our budget was very small at the start. And so I was like, I don’t … I want something for the kids, and I, we need these bulletins for the adults. What if I just combine them? And then that halves the printing cost. So that was an industrious thing. That was a, like, but how do we treat something that we have to penny pinch, that we have to, like, operate out of scarcity as an opportunity to seek abundance?
And I think what that leads to is a generosity of spirit among each other. And I repeat over and over and over and over that Jubilee is a place where folks who’ve literally never once been asked what their pronouns are equally a part of the congregation of the trans women who’ve been out for over twenty years. And the way that we thread that needle is not by saying, like, be quiet if you’re, like, identity is a problem.
Instead, what we say is, like, this is a place of grace. This is a place to ask questions. This is also a place to gently say who you are and how you belong. And when we start with this this and I don’t mean gentle as an apologetic. I mean, gentle as in, like, all are called here to be children of God. So when we start with that “Everyone has a place here,” people have more trust that they can both ask questions and also receive feedback in a way that, uplifts and builds each other up instead of tears each other down.
And I’m not trying to say that it’s perfect or that it always works out, but, like, I have experienced the leadership in my people to be incredibly life-giving and just incredibly trustworthy that God, is gonna keep moving even if we’re like, okay. Well, we have to face a $10,000 cut, or we this isn’t what we planned, or the florist canceled for the Easter vigil, which happened this week. And it’s like, okay, well, who knows how to do some flower arranging? Let’s figure it out. Right? Like, instead of just, you know, sitting there as sackcloth and ashes. Mhmm. Move on, y’all. Come on. Joy’s a disappointment, which sometimes means, as the great Dolly Parton says, you better get to livin’, you know?
H: Well, it reminds me too of the story you were telling me when I saw you in Texas about the way the banner came together. It was just like, okay.
Ready, set, go. Literally.
L: Yep. Yep. We had, like, three weeks where, I got an email where diocese people were like, hey, make sure you bring your banners to convention. I was like, church plant world. I’m like, I didn’t know we needed a banner. That’s my first time being church. Also, I was like, called to be a planter and a vicar out of COVID. So like, everything was, you know, it like so I was like, okay. How do we make a banner? And I, like, posted in the group chat. And several people are like, I know how to sew. Lizzie, you probably have some rhinestones. Why don’t I bring some sewing things on Sunday, and we’ll do the logo, and we’ll have the kids cut out butterflies, and I’ll go to the craft store. I’ll get some pink fabric. I mean, I know it’s just like this collaborative, like, and it literally came together thanks to several key visionaries and also the contribution of everybody being like, yeah, let’s do it. And like, just having a spirit of like, let’s be co-creative instead of tearing each other down or waiting for the best idea or the most perfect idea. We don’t let perfect be the enemy of the good.
H: Mhmm. And I can really see how you empower people not only to belong, but then to be leaders in the community themselves.
L: Yes. Yeah.
H: That’s, that’s really amazing. And the belonging extends even to children. Like the way you talk about your congregation. Like, oh, that’s a place I wouldn’t be terrified to bring a baby. Blessed is scream.
L: Oh, God. Yes. No. So we have a playground in the sanctuary. So the play partially, again, necessity, right? Like, we started off popping up in a restaurant. Well, actually, we started in my living room. So I was like, well, the baby’s gonna be here because this is also her living room. And then we started popping up at a restaurant, and it’s not like we had a dedicated children’s wing to send those crying babies to. And so often I was holding the baby or, you know, other folks were passing the baby around, and my family was offering a lot of incredible childcare and support.
But what that showed from the beginning is that children are not the future of the church. They are the church right now. And they have honestly, in some ways, a deeper spiritual understanding of who God is than I ever will.
H: And I just love learning from them.
L: Yes. Oh, my god. We have kids. So we do bells every Sunday. Everybody gets a song to spell, which again started because the kids wanted to ring the bells. And I was like, well, why don’t we again Why not? Yeah. You could see that as a scarcity.
It’s like, oh my god. How do we tell the kids to stop ringing bells or they have to be acolytes first? And it’s gonna be like
H: Right. Right. Right.
L: What if everybody had a bell and we taught everybody when to ring them to sort of circumnavigate the kid ringing the bell the whole time and, like, making everybody’s brain rattle around their head? It’s like, how do we see this that could be a scarcity problem and see it as an opportunity for abundance? And that’s what we did. And so the kids, they know when the bells come. They know at what points in the Eucharistic prayer we ring the sanctus bells. The kids hand out the bells to everyone. So actually every visitor to Jubilee has several dedicated greeters who are all the ages of three and four to make sure that they get their bells. I mean, it’s just and so this teaching children hospitality from a young age, and it’s letting them lead. I mean, it’s beautiful.
H: Love it. And it’s so, like, one, another thing that’s amazing about it is it doesn’t in any way go against the grain of, like, the Book of Common Prayer or what we’re supposed to do. It’s like seeing the community, inviting them into the work. It’s the work of all the people the liturgy.
L: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It’s amazing. Yeah. That’s the thing. People send us email. They’re like, can I have your Palm Sunday liturgy or whatever? And I’m like, I hate It’s the BCP. Literally the BCP. We are Holy Eucharist right to we’ll do EOW for a season, but, like, we are Holy Eucharist right to it right out of the BCP. We do it right out.
H: But check out my sick word search.
L: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. But we just do it in a way that like it does, you don’t … Anybody can play with this because you’re not gonna break it.
H: Right. Right.
B: So as I hear you describe this incredibly vibrant community and how it’s been co created, I’m connecting two dots, into the vibrancy of your community and how you describe Mary in your book and the not knowing. It’s not as if you as a leader have it all figured out, have the plan, and are coming from the top down and rolling out a plan. There’s … I’m hearing a kind of playful trust. And, and am I right connecting those two dots? Has Mary been sort of, influential for you in, in her embodiment of sitting with not, not knowing, not knowing what would happen to her son, not … she doesn’t know about the resurrection. It takes a lot of faith to, for Mary to be Mary. I imagine it takes a lot of faith for you to, to be you and to show up and to co-create and do this week after week.
L: Yeah. I, can I read a little section from a chapter?
B: Oh, please.
L: Because I think this answers that question. So this chapter is called born in dazzling darkness, which y’all will know is a is a little and the footnote is there, a little a little call to Sarah Coakley and, Saint Gregory.
H: Gregory!
L: The best. So I’ll just frame by saying yes. Mary doesn’t know all that unfolds. And so, I’m just gonna read a little section. Just trying to pick where I wanna start. Okay. I’ll start here.
“Mother Mary has always been taught to me as especially sacred because she was so, quote, pure. The angel never calls her pure, though. The angel says nothing is impossible for God. The emphasis on the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary, again, curious language, and filling her with this promise and impossibility. Her virginity is ancillary to God doing the impossible. And yet, virgin birth, it matters. One advent during my college internship, I was midway through leading a Bible study on Mary, popping off about the evils of patriarchal definitions of hymens when a friend of mine quietly said, “Look. I agree that her virginity is overblown, but I think it matters that she did not know what she was doing and had the courage to say yes anyway.”
That stops me. That stopped me in my tracks in that moment. It does still. Because as much as I want to control all that happens to me, the reality remains faith means we don’t know the ending. We can never ever fully know what we’re getting into. Love takes risk. Motherhood, perhaps most of all. What if the person I am making this baby with leaves me? What if our love falls apart? What if I can’t get pregnant? What if my baby is sick? What if I lose this pregnancy?
And what happens once the baby arrives? How will I live through my child’s losses, pains? What if I have a baby I adore and a marriage that is beautiful and our baby dies? What then? Love takes risk. Motherhood takes risk. And God knows this most of all because God made us knowing all that would and could unfold and did it anyway.
So perhaps Jesus being born of the Virgin Mary is less about women and sex and more about God being willing to try something new for the sake of new creation.”
So, yeah, I mean, Mary has always been since my Catholic upbringing so powerful to me. And I think that, the parallels to me today that the day we’re recording this is actually my fourth priesthood anniversary. And I was reflecting this week that I’ve never had a holy week without a baby. I–holy because a priest rather, because I was a deacon for my first holy week. And then the second holy week I was on maternity leave, third holy week was first holy week at Jubilee. And then, yeah. So which was it’s just been wild.
And so my whole priesthood has in many ways been wrapped up in my motherhood. And in some of that ways … that’s insane. And in other ways, I … it’s been so formative and so teaching of, like, this balance of I have to own my authority because I am the grown up, like, especially in parenthood. Right? But, like, I’m the one who’s gonna make the decision. I’m the one who’s gonna take the responsibility, but also have the humility of, like, and we’re gonna have to figure this out together, and we’re gonna have to adapt. We’re gonna have to change. And maybe I was gonna sleep train my baby, but actually, that’s not working. So we’ve got to figure something else out. And in the same way with I think, leadership, it’s like I had a vision, I had a plan, but I had to have a lot of trust and a lot of openness to cocreating with people who are wiser than me, who’ve done this before, and who haven’t done the specific thing before, but have the right amount of trust in God and, like, courage to do something new, because isn’t that what God does?
B: It’s been my experience that when you try to write about transformation, you get transformed in the process, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so I wonder on the journey of writing the book, how have you noticed yourself changing? What surprises in your own heart, lept up to you as revelations?
L: I think so the chapter that was the hardest to write is actually chapter two, We were Born Homesick, which I get that line from my friend, Suze Long, who, at the band hard worker, the opening song is we the opening line of the song Born Homesick is “We were not born in sin. We were born homesick.” And I just love that. And I love the way that that line has just come to me over and over and over in moments of leadership crisis of, like, this … this person. Yes, sin is real. Like, I’m not saying that sin isn’t real, but, like, what is the longing underneath the sin? Right? Like, what is the longing underneath the disconnect? What is the longing underneath the challenge? What am I longing for?
And, I mean, the answer is always God. Right? But, like, sometimes we have to figure things out of, like, okay, but the longing is also to have more volunteer staff as ministry. But I think in that, like, that being the most difficult chapter and the whole process itself was, like, it’s so important to make time in my life as a priority to come home to God creatively. And creatively for me, right?
I think there are lots of people for whom doing the Ignatian examen or taking a walk is, like, connecting with God. And I’m not saying those things don’t work for me, but for … I need to have a lot of quiet and something to do with my hands, whether it’s writing or bedazzling vestments, which there is something to be said about the repetitive motion over and over and, like, vibing up the …
H: Look, you’re talking to knitters, and I knew we were headed in that direction, and that’s why you can see my giddiness. Yes. Yes.
B: Oh, my goodness. No. I’m so excited.
L: Yeah. But that, like, mind quiet to listen to God, I think, is so important. And I feared in in preparing to write this book because sort of the rest of the story, I think I forgot to finish this that, I sat down and I wrote the book proposal in a month, edited the book proposal, which was basically a whole outline of the book, sold the book, and then wrote the whole manuscript in three months. And then we edited it, but it was a lot of polishing, not a lot of, like, substantial editing. So it was a very fast process. And I worried that people would think I was taking time away from them to do this. Right? I think that’s the thing that a lot of clergy-slash-any-leader feels like, oh, well, this feels ancillary because it’s not making the bulletin or, you know, scheduling hospital visits, right? Like, and those things can still happen while you also tend to your creative life.
And for me, it was like the replenishment I needed after really serious postpartum depression after the, like, enormous change of becoming a priest and a mom in very short order. And it has nourished me such that I feel like I now have this, like, well inside of, like, quiet time with God that when life is very loud (which life is very loud right now) I get … I can sort of like almost microdose it. You know, I mean, like, I can like reach in and be there.
H: It’s there to return to.
L: It’s there to return to. And I know that, I can’t to be clear, I was working the whole time I was writing it, but I like had cleared a lot of other things from my schedule. And my family took on a lot for me to be able to do that. And so it’s like, I know that I’m gonna need to find times and spaces to come back to this and this … there’s just gonna have to be a way that the humdrum work life and the humdrum domestic life makes space for this sacred creativity. Mhmm. And it’s really been a gift.
H: We sometimes do golden retriever games on this podcast because we’ve both been called human golden retrievers.
L: You are. Yes. I agree.
H: And so this is our time to go full golden retriever every once in a while on the podcast.
L: A hundred percent.
H: So this golden retriever game is horror or holy. And here’s how it works. I will read you a quote that’s either from a horror film or a famous preacher. And the two of you … And the two of you need to discern together which you think it is, what the origin is.
B: Oh, I’m … I’m here for it.
H: Okay. Okay. Are you ready?
L: I am so nervous.
B: Can I ask, are there, are there points awarded?
H: I would say you get …
L: That is a golden retriever question.
H: Let’s say you get a point for getting it right. You get five bonus points if you guess the movie or preacher.
B: Ooh, okay. Fantastic.
H: And it’s a cooperative game. Okay? Essentially, you’re all gonna win.
B: Yeah. Yeah. We’re … we’re a team.
H: Okay. Number one.
L: We’re just competing against ourselves. Great.
H: Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. You’re competing against me and Teresa Morgan playing Gregory or Gregory a few weeks ago.
B: Wow. Okay. Okay.
H: Quote number one. “The power of Christ compels you.”
L: That’s a horror movie. Right? Isn’t that like a famous horror movie line?
B: Well, I mean, it sounds like it could be from, I don’t know, like the Exorcist or something.
L: Yeah. That’s …
H: that’s six points. Yes.
B: I have watched, for the record, three minutes of The Exorcist. It was way too scary for me.
H: I sort of figured neither of you are horror movie buffs. Oh, anyway, the reason I thought this was inspired is because after I came up with this game, then Lizzie, you did a TikTok about how “My favorite horror movie is people saying terrible things from the pulpit! Just kidding.” And I was, like, Wavelength. Wavelength.
L: Wavelength. Yep. Okay. Oh, man. Yeah. I don’t watch horror movies. I’m a scary, scaredy little kitty cat. Sometimes, you know, there’s, like, certain children’s movies. I’m like, “Man, Moana, did you have to go that hard?” Like …
H: Oh, I know. Ursula, very scary. Love it. Okay. Quote number two: “The path to heaven lies through the gates of hell.” Horror or holy?
B: Oh. The path? And lies through the gates of hell. That…
L: I feel like there could be, like, a cool, like, theological twist with that of, like, Jesus having to harrow hell in order to bring the kindom of heaven, kingdom of heaven down on earth? I’m gonna say preacher. That’s what I’m thinking, Brandon. What do you think?
B: I am in full support. I could go either way. Yeah. Let’s go with …
H: One point. Would you like for a bonus five points to guess who preached it?
L: Okay. Can you give us a … an era? Like, is this a, is this preacher alive currently? Is this …
H: I don’t think so.
L: Okay. Okay. I … you don’t think … so is it like Saint Augustine or, like, you don’t think so? And then it’s like someone who … like Phyllis Tickle?
H: Okay. This is gonna be a quick Google.
B: I’m getting, like, Billy Graham vibes.
L: You think Billy Graham talked about harrowing hell?
H: Okay. We’re in the nineteenth century.
B: I … to be to be fair, I don’t know that I ever watched Billy Graham.
L: Okay. Nineteenth century.
B: Nineteenth century.
H: Yeah. I’m keeping tally here.
L: Yeah. I don’t know. I don’t know.
H: Charles Spurgeon.
L: Oh, absolutely would never have guessed that.
H: Here we go. Quote number three. “Be sober minded. Be watchful. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.”
L: I mean, that’s also from Compline. That’s from the Bible. Literally. Isn’t that what?
H: Six points.
L: Tell my bullshit, but I still pray Compline.
H: Boom. That is from first Peter.
B: That’s my favorite.
H: Uh-huh. It’s also, yeah, it’s such an epic line.
L: God, no, that’s why I, because it’s so good. And it’s one that, honestly, I had to pray … I pray Compline a lot, and, when I was deep in postpartum depression and terrified of falling asleep, that was, like, the thing that like, those super metal verses. I was, like, okay. I can sleep because God has harrowed hell. God has defeated lions. She’s gonna watch over my baby while I take a nap. Okay? For the sake of the peace of Jerusalem.
H: “Evil is not a distant demon. It is among us in our hearts.”
L: In our hearts.
B: It’s not The Shining. Right? So
H: Nope. You have another guess, Lizzie?
L: No. I don’t know many horror movies.
B: Texas Chainsaw Massacre!
H: The witch.
L: Oh, but we got it. Like, that it was a horror movie.
Editors know, we lost Brandon’s video feed. He will be visually represented by his golden avatar for the rest of the Golden Retriever games.
H: “Life is a warfare, and he who has not met with trials is yet untested.”
L: I’m thinking preacher?
B: Preacher.
H: Wow. Okay. Who?
L: Again, living or dead?
H: Dead.
L: Dead. Life is a warfare. That just feels very …
H: This one’s closer to home.
B: Closer to home… whose home?
L: That doesn’t feel like Billy Graham’s style, but it … it does feel more …
B: Oh.
L: Who do you think it is, Brandon?
B: What about Jonathan Edwards?
H: Clue. Episcopalian cousin.
B: Episcopalian.
L: Is it John …not John Wesley?
H: Yes. Right.
L: That was literally my first thought. I was like, but, no, that’s the thing is his preaching was super fiery. He was just the marble statue with moving lips.
H: You guys, you’re at 20 points. Okay. Let me give you, like, a couple more. I’ve got a huge list here, but I’m … I’m having too much fun.
“Goodness is sometimes found in the very brink of evil.”
B: The brink of evil.
L: That feels very Hollywood to me, but it could be a great preacher.
B: Right. Also could be a trailer.
L: Could also be a, like, they’re holding the, you know, the gun or the ax or the whatever. Like, we’re about to go kill them zombies. You know? Goodness. It’s often found in the brief and there’s soundtrack coming in.
B: Yeah. That’s my inclination as well. Hollywood.
H: Yes.
L: Yes, Brandon!
H: And again, it is.
L: I’m so bad with … Blair Witch Project?
L: I’m, ummm, Signs.
H: The Babadook.
L: Absolutely no idea what that is.
B: Wow. That is a deep cut. Okay.
H: Okay. Okay. Okay. “The fires of persecution are raging and the demons of hell are busy.” Alive.
L: Ahh, so a preacher.
H: Oh, shoot.
L: To be fair, I was gonna say preacher. I was … I was like, that sounds like some sort of nonsense of Christian persecution …
B: Busy demons. I just have never listened to any preachers who would say something like that.
H: Well done.
L: I don’t wanna say who my guess is because I wanna hear who it is.
H: Jerry Falwell.
L: AAAAAH! That’s who I was gonna guess! That’s who I was gonna guess!
H: I knew you could do it.
LL I was just like watch it be like Richard Rohr. I knew it wouldn’t be, but I just didn’t wanna … I don’t know.
H: Richard Rohr! How’s this? “Each creature walks the shadowed valley knowing that the light is not far, but cannot find the way.”
B: Well, that’s preacherly, right?
L: That feels preacherly, unless it’s about a zombie film. I’m a go with preacher. I’m a follow your lead on here, Brandon. Preacherly.
H: Yep. Yep. And this is sort of more of an author than a preacher. Any guesses?
L: C. S. Lewis.
H: Nope.
B: That’s such a good guess.
L: Thank you. Thank you.
B: Tolkien?
H: Nope. John Bunyan, The Pilgrim’s Progress.
L: Oh. Deep cut.
H: Okay. Great. Let me just do one final one because it’s too metal to not just
B: You are such a golden retriever today.
H: “I looked and behold, a pale horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him.”
L: That’s the Bible.
H: It sure is. Yeah.
B: Well, the Revelation.
H: Six points.
L: Listen. Listen. I did not grow up with sword drills, but I have … I literally, at one point in my life in divinity school in a moment of bitterness said, “I’m gonna learn how to quote scripture better than those mean Baptist preachers who show up to protest at Pride.”
H: And this is what that training was for, 28 points. Well done.
B: Wow.
L: High five, Brandon.
B: Woo. Winning at life.
H: Thanks for playing. What did I call it? Holy or horror?
B: Yes. Oh, well, thank you so much for your presence, for your writing, and for all your ministry. Would you, would you bless us, by, by reading a little from your book as a way of closing?
L: I would love to. So, this blessing is adapted from the words of Saint Julian of Norwich, whom I know is beloved by all of us. And it is a riff on the blessing I offer every week at Jubilee, and it’s the closing prayer of the book.
God never promised things would be easy.
God never promised we would never be sick, never be sad, never be lonely, never be tired, or never be harmed. But God did promise we will not be overcome.
Remember, when the storm is raging, God is the shelter. And when we are too sheltered, God will bring a storm. So the blessing of God be upon you now and always in the name of the Father and in the name of the Son and in the name of the Holy Spirit, one God. Amen. Alleluia. Alleluia. Go in peace to love and serve the Lord.
H: Amen.