50: Innovative Parish Ministry with the Threshold Center

https://www.thethresholdcenter.org/ 

Advertising partners: http://livingchurch.org/events 

Hosts: Brandon Nappi and Hannah Black 

Guests: The Rev’d John Burruss and the Rev’d Mary Bea Sullivan 

Production: Goodchild Media 

Music: Wayfaring Stranger, Theodicy Jazz Collective 

Art: E. Landino 

Instagram: @theleadersway.podcast 

berkeleydivinity.yale.edu/podcast

You can support our work at https://tinyurl.com/support-transforming-leaders

B:            Hey, Hannah. 

H:           Hey, Brandon. 

B:            How are you doing today? 

H:           Fine and dandy. What’s up?

B:            Dandy. I hope our listeners are doing dandy. 

H:           Dandy is an overstatement, but it’s like there’s this saying in dance, “If you can say it, you can do it,” especially in tap dancing. Like, if you can go through shuffle, ball change, shuffle, ball change, flap heel flap heel or something like that, then you could just, like, do it. So if I tell you I’m dandy, maybe I can live into that reality.

B:            See, here’s what you have to know about Hannah Black. She might be speaking Greek. She might be speaking in tongues, or she might be …  She might be speaking tap. What just came out of your mouth?

H:           Or in tap. Only the few with ears to hear will know, Brandon. 

B:            Wow. I usually can track. I pride myself in tracking. It was 0% tracking.

H:           We were just talking about dance too. So I was like, I don’t know. I overestimated the chunky middle between your body of knowledge and my body of knowledge. 

B:            Okay. So for listeners who are not tracking the term of art that has been coined here on the … 

H:           Have we lost our minds?

B:            Yes. This is a Venn diagram metaphor, to talk about the … well, like, when two things have similarities. And, like, the Venn diagram, like–most people know they overlap, like, these two circles overlap. But when things really overlap a lot, in the Venn diagram, there’s a chunky middle.

H:           Mhmm. Mhmm. Obviously. 

B:            And this is, I think, a new segment on the Leaders Way podcast. We didn’t plan it today. But it just happened.

H:           Yeah. So please submit your chunky middles to berkeley.communications@yale.edu or message us on Instagram at theleadersway.podcast. I would like to share some of other people’s ideas of what chunky middles exist in our world. 

B:            Yeah. What two things in your life overlap in a really beautiful way? Maybe even things that surprise you that they overlap or other people think that they don’t overlap, but they 100% do. 

H:           That’s it. Yeah. I’m, I’m living a both-and kind of life, Brandon. 

B:            Wow.

H:           None of this either/or. 

B:            We just wanna be you, I think. 

H:           Oh, my goodness. Okay. Here’s a chunky middle. Is the church in the past or in the future? 

B:            Oh, yeah. This …  

H:           Yeah, you’re reading my mind. 

B:            But no, go there. I don’t want to be presumptuous. 

H:           Yeah. I like this …  I think is the crux of innovation. We were talking recently, not on air,  about like what we think of when we think of the word innovation. And of course we think about like innovative projects that church leaders can undertake as part of our professional life together, especially insofar as like Leaders Way Fellows do innovative ministry projects.

               And what are we hoping to see? How can we communicate to church leaders who come to the program? Like what this is that we’re envisioning. And I think … like at its best, innovation speaks to what I sometimes think of as translation, like bringing the ancient always-true truths, truth, beauty, love, all of that of Christianity and bringing it to like touch and meet needs in the world and specifically in one’s community. 

B:            Yeah. Thank you for saying that. I mean, this is the work of leadership, is to be able to hold this paradox of the ancient and the new and to provide what is in some ways like a third space or a third initiative where … 

H:           A chunky middle. 

B:            A chunky middle. It is where these two realities can commingle and something new can happen. And today’s conversation is with two humans who are just doing it, living it, and  their innovation is really exciting. It’s in Birmingham. Birmingham, Alabama. It comes out of just a horrific tragedy. You know, it was in part incubated during the Leaders Way program a couple years back. And when I heard about what was happening in this particular community and the fresh way they were responding, I just had to have a conversation with them to learn. So I’m so excited for our conversation today.

H:           Well, and as you know, a scripture that’s been on my heart recently is Isaiah 43, where the Lord says, “See, I am doing a new thing.” And there’s this imagery of like stuff springing up out of the ground that I’ve been sitting with. And so the image of, like, planting bulbs and having the blooms come later felt really poignant for me. And I know as a gardener, you must think about this kind of a lot. 

B:            Oh, I think about it all the time. And, you know, at the time of recording right now, it’s … I don’t know, it’s maybe a week, ten days before we’re likely to see the first crocuses pop through the snow. So it’s an exciting time. I am putting my nose down in the dirt almost every day to see if today is gonna be the day. 

H:           Okay. This metaphor has staying power. ‘Cause as we were talking and they were talking about like, what needed to happen in this specific community in Alabama, I was like, “Oh yes, that’s different soil and a different climate than maybe another community who might need a different kind of bulb planted–or maybe it’s not a bulb-friendly environment, but it’s still … “ There’s a lot we could do here. 

B:            Oh, I love it. I love it. Well, let’s tell our listeners a little bit about these two wonderful humans. We’re blessed with two guests, who’ve been a great team in launching the Threshold Center, this wonderful new center for healing and connection and belonging in Birmingham. I’ll introduce the Reverend John Burrus, who is the rector there at St. Stephen’s in Birmingham, Alabama. St. Stephen’s is a vibrant, large community of 2,000 people actively engaged in parish life throughout the community. Father John, before being the rector there at St. Stephen’s, was the Canon for Sustainable Ministries in the Episcopal Diocese of West Tennessee, graduate of the Leaders Way. And when he was a Leaders Way Fellow, began planting the seeds or the bulbs, should we say, for this particular ministry. 

H:           Wait. Okay. Before I introduce Mary Bea, did you know that dahlia tubers are edible? 

B:            No. I did not know that. 

H:           You could cook them like potatoes, which I’ve never done because if I’m in possession of a dahlia tuber, obviously I’m planting it. 

B:            Indeed. No, that’s so interesting. 

H;           There is a mind blowing fact for you. You learned something today. 

B:            Wow. I have 10 dahlia tubers that will arrive in another eight weeks or so, I’m very excited to say. 

H:           Oh, my gosh. We’re gonna need to talk flowers after this. But without further ado, the Reverend Mary Bea Sullivan is a retreat leader, spiritual director, nonprofit founder, and author.

Her latest book is Living the Way of Love: a Forty Day Devotional. Love a devotional. Mary Bea’s exposure to various spiritual traditions and practices and her training as a facilitator are so well-suited to the mission of the Threshold Center. Collaborating with so many talented, generous-hearted people to bring the Threshold Center to life is the answer to a long held prayer for Mary Bea. 

B:            Hi. I’m Brandon Nappi. 

H:           Hi. I’m Hannah Black.

B:            And we’re your hosts on the Leader’s Way podcast. A Yale podcast empowering leaders, cultivating spirituality, and exploring theology. 

H:           This podcast is brought to you by Berkeley Divinity School, the Episcopal Seminary at Yale.

H:           Hello, and welcome to the Leaders Way podcast. This is so super exciting. I sort of feel like Brandon has a sense of what’s coming. And for me, this is gonna be a fun ride. So, let’s roll.

I wonder if both of you, Mary Bea and John, could start out by kind of, you know, we’ve told our listeners who you are, but could you tell us a little bit about yourselves and what’s special to you about your ministries? 

John:       So I’m the rector of St. Stephen’s Episcopal Church, which is located in Birmingham, Alabama. It is a place that …  I wake up almost every single day wondering how I’m lucky enough to get to serve here. A place that … it’s a little bit different than a lot of Episcopal churches. There’s no stained glass. There’s no organ. We’re in the woods looking out on dogwood trees and daffodils that are blooming right now and, man. Giving parishioners honey and solar panels and all sorts of weird goodness. And so I, it is a place that that basically the spirit for the fifty one years has always been, you know, “What can we do?” and a place where creativity flourishes. And so I feel lucky. It’s a playground for the Christian faith at Saint Stephen’s. And I get to come and play with a bunch of really creative people, and feel very lucky to be here. 

B:            Oh, John, you had me at daffodils. There’s a foot of frozen tundra outside my our windows right now.

H:           So clearly, we need a work trip to Alabama that crosses over on a Sunday. Come on. We would love it. 

J:             Actually, like, stewardship season for a couple years, people would come out of the nave, and there were pre-dug holes, and they would take daffodil bulbs and place them in so that when they come back in the spring and they’d see life. And right now is when, when that that gift from several years ago is coming to, coming–breaking through in full force.

B:            Are you interested in church growth, but less interested in applying industrial growth models to a congregation? You’re invited to an exciting new conference specially tailored for Anglican and Episcopal clergy and lay leaders and sponsored by the Living Church. It’s called “Tending the Vineyard,” June 5th through the 7th in beautiful Louisville, Kentucky. Tending The Vineyard will explore leadership development, global perspectives, discipleship, and agrarian and monastic wisdom for work, place, and community. And take a healthy look at church growth statistics.

               Speakers include Mary Berry of the Wendell Berry Center, Biblical scholar Ellen Davis, Executive Director of Forward Movement Scott Gunn, Bishops Jenny Anderson and John Taflanka, growth analyst David Gaddoo, and Vice President of the House of Deputies, Steve Penke.

H:           The conference includes plenty of time for making new friends, live bluegrass music and an outdoor Louisville barbecue. Register at livingchurch.org/events or head to the show notes, and click on the link. 

Mary Bea:              So, I guess I’ll just say that I grew up as a little Catholic girl in a big, huge Catholic, Irish-Catholic, German Catholic family with a profound appreciation for church. Like, a lot of times, my siblings would try to find ways to get out of it, and I was the weirdo who was having fun. And then in my twenties, had–was early on the crisis-of-faith train, and left the Catholic church and wandered far and wide for a long time. Sometimes running in the woods was my church for a couple years. I lived in Tokyo for a few years, so I was introduced to some Buddhist practices and yoga there that just impacted me profoundly. And so later, I ended up following a Tibetan Buddhist Lama for a couple of years. He was my teacher.

               And, one of my–a story I’ve told a lot is after two years, I went up to him–and I loved him dearly–and I said, Lama Norla, you have made such a difference in my life. Anipama, that was one of the nuns who was part of the Sangha … have made a big difference in my life, but something’s missing. And he just took my face in his hands, and he said, “You were raised a Christian. Perhaps it’s time you go home.”

H:           Woah. 

M:           And, then he said, “Whatever you choose, go deeply.” So before I was ordained a priest in the Episcopal Church, I went to see Lama Norla. He’s since died, but up in Wappingers Falls, New York to tell him, “I think you commissioned me to become a priest. But, an Episcopal bishop will do the job.” And, so I feel really grateful to be in a place where I can tap into the contemplative, and all that the Buddhist tradition taught me within the context of my love of Jesus and my love of the church and being in community in this very special way. 

J:             I have a little aside. I just gotta let you know we have this contemplative service, this Celtic service in the evening, and we bring people to worship with a little bowl. It is Mary Bea’s bowl. It’s got Buddha in the center of it. And every time every time I go to ring the bell to lead worship, it makes me smile. I don’t think I’ve confessed that to Saint Stephen’s. So it’s the Buddhist bowl that’s part of our worshiping community. 

B:            Oh, it’s fantastic. I mean, I was so resonating with that, with that story, Mary Bea, and maybe some other time, I, you know, I can share all the reasons. But one of the primary reasons that I was sort of glowing here is just how unpredictable the path is. You know, I think we would never imagine or choreograph a path as the one God ends up inviting us to walk. So thank you for saying yes to it, even though it didn’t end perhaps the way you had seen it start. And I wonder, John, if you could just in a in a moment or two share your vocation story. How did you end up a priest? 

J:             Yeah. It’s not as profound of a story as Mary Bea’s, but I … so I worked; I spent my summers growing up working at a Boy Scout camp, working with kids. And after college, an opening for a youth minister position in Memphis opened, and I was like, Yeah. It sounds like it’d be fun. And I worked at a church in Memphis for over six years, and I found the … kind of the shift taking place within that community, from fun and games to real spiritual growth. And I just saw that there was life-giving, challenging and fun, and a good use of my own gifts and skills. And so far, it has been the greatest professional joy of my life. And seeing what is in front of you and finding the best way to use your gifts and skills to make the world a better place in the church has felt right for me. 

B:            Well, we’re so thankful to hear the story of the Threshold Center and all the amazing work that’s happening, that has happened, and that’s about to happen. And I’d love you to share the story of the Center. I know that it goes back to a traumatic moment in the life of the parish, and I wonder if you could, if you’d feel comfortable telling a little bit of that story, what happened and how the community responded? 

J:             Well, I maybe a little bit of preface even before that. St. Stephen’s is a place where things have started for a long time. The church is only 51 years old, but it has planted three other Episcopal parishes. We had a ministry for children who are abused, that the founding, the founder of the ministry had an office at Saint Stephen’s, and then that turned into what’s now King’s Ranch. There was a medical clinic that started out at Saint Stephen’s for the neighborhood. So this has been a place that people have been able to take dreams and bring them to life. It’s a part of the DNA.

               Two and a half years ago, we had a, we have a group called the Boomer’s group. It’s a senior group that meets at church for fellowship, and they have monthly gatherings. And a person who had been worshiping at Saint Stephen’s for about six months attended that gathering  and pulled out a gun and killed three of the members before he was disarmed and taken and subdued. And this community has been a place that has always practiced radical hospitality and welcome, and it has been a place that has doubled down on that ethic of love and inclusion as the way to life even at the highest cost. 

               And so, you know, one of the things that we’ve learned is that lots of violent behavior comes out of perceived grievance, pain, and loneliness. One of the things … the FBI kinda worked with us and the Secret Service afterwards, realizing that people who are isolated and feel a perceived grievance, that’s where kind of violence often manifests itself. And so, to some extent, that is part of the origin story of an attempt to respond to the loneliness epidemic. And, Mary Bea, I think you can probably better speak to that. 

M:           Mhmm. Yeah. Thank you, John. I mean, it was just a horrible experience for everybody, of course, who was here and then the greater community. And the response from not only immediate community, the neighborhood, but also nationally, internationally, there was just this phenomenal outpouring of care and love and support. 

               And so part of where I think the imprint of that continues with the Threshold Center is, one, addressing this loneliness epidemic, which is real. Not only a sense of isolation, but also a sense of divisiveness, and that we need places to come together. We’re yearning for something deeper than what we see on social media, and so there is this incredible building. So I’m across the street from John, and he’s at the main campus. And then we have this beautiful little church that was built three decades ago, for a community of people who are hearing impaired to worship. And then about, John, you could say better than me. I think it was about seven, eight years ago that community disbanded. They didn’t need to. They were able to worship fully in other communities. 

               And so there had been, for a while, a wondering, what do we do with this building? How can we … and so there was a sense of desire to be able to use it as something that the greater community could feel a part of as a way of outreach. And it’s already being used in that way. We have a memory care respite program that’s here during the day. On the weekends, there are Al Anon. There’s–on Sunday, there’s a Baptist African-American church that worships here. So this is a space that is a shared space for sure. But John had held a desire for a long time.

What do we do with this? Years ago, before I went to seminary, I had had a conversation with the previous rector about could we send start a center for spirituality, but it just wasn’t right. There was … anyway, the timing was right. John’s so open. The community’s so open. The building was open. So we dreamed together, about what we might be able to do here. 

               And, interestingly, the woman who was the original architect for this physical building, Catherine Owens, became the first– the founding Board Chair for the Threshold Center. So I like to say she was the architect of the building thirty years ago, and she’s one of the coarchitects of the new mission and ministry for the building. I mean, how like, this comes back, Brandon, to what you said about who knows what the path is, if we can just trust and stay there.

               So we wrestled for a while about, you know, who are we? What are we? What’s our mission? And it’s evolving. I mean, just today, we made our website live and did a press release that the Threshold Center is real and a thing. But we realized the components that were most important was that we wanted to create a place of belonging, and that it nurtured–nurtures well-being, and that we do this by engaging practices of the heart and the body and the imagination. We worked hard on what does that mean, and so we’ve collaborated with phenomenal local facilitators, and then we’ve got some national folks coming in. But that, to be able to… I think of it like a playground, actually. 

               Like, we have this beautiful person, Molly Erickson, who is a trauma-informed yoga teacher, and she works with some folks who have gone through trauma at one place. She’s their well-being coach, and she’s done some work here. And I’ve said to her, Molly, this is your playground. You come and tell me, what do you wanna offer? And the people love her. And, and I know I’m going on and on. But one more thing I wanna say is, one of our hopes is to honor the beauty of the work of people like Molly, who sometimes the world can discount them, like CEOs and business, you know, but poets and yoga teachers and artists and writers–Sometimes there’s a sense of being discounted, and we are trying to lift them up, and as best we can, compensate them well for their time, take good care of them, honor their work, and trust that right now the world needs the arts and the imagination a lot. 

B:            What I love about this is that it’s a form of innovation which really leverages a very ancient sort of concept. Right? And that is, like, the church has for centuries been a place that supports the arts and the imagination and creativity. You know, I’m thinking of medieval monasteries. I’m thinking of the Renaissance. And so, you know, you’ve leveraged this very ancient tradition, but in a completely fresh way. And I wonder, was that intentional, or was this–did this just sort of organically unfold intuitively for you? 

M:           That’s a great question. I’d have to think on it longer, but my gut answer is, one, not only myself, but a number of the other people who are part of helping make this, you know, happen, to get it started, we’re rooted in some of those monastic traditions. So, like, you know, we are a people of practice. And so of course, we would take–in fact, the series that we started out was, you know, Spiritual Practices for Resilience. And now we–the theme is Practices for Well-being. So praxis, all of that monastic community, the sense of the rhythm of … the pray, the work, the eat, the rest– all of that is just baked in. And our hope is that as people feel connected and they see each other in programs time and time again and they create these relationships, that this is that kind of sense of not a monastery where everybody lives in the same place together, but we take this monastic heart and practice out into the world to try to be transformational beings in a world that is yearning for transformation. 

               And one of the things we really do emphasize is it’s about being in community. So, yes, I need to be responsible for my own spiritual life and work and connection to the sacred and connection to others in the natural world and to realize we are all interdependent. I don’t know. And our hope is really to create this third space where people who would not normally be in conversation with one another are going, oh, my. You look so different than me, or you’re younger, you’re older, or you’re from somewhere else, but we share this heart. 

H:           Those little interactions in community are so important. It reminds me of when I used to be a barista at Pete’s Coffee, one of my coworkers was this, like, burly guy with a whole bunch of tattoos. And a certain kind of person would walk in and make assumptions about him, but then the regular customers knew that he was, like, the sweetest teddy bear of us all. You know? And it’s the actually encountering your neighbors that sometimes makes the biggest difference.  As you’re talking about the Center and talking about its work, this image of planting the daffodils keeps coming back to mind. Like, the architect planting a daffodil, the priest planting a daffodil, the artist planting a daffodil. 

J:             It’s all connected. Like, I think one of the things that’s helpful to that I’ve probably not done the best job of sharing over the last, you know, few years is that, you know, the way that we’ve navigated the pain and trauma of what happened is through the love and care of both people in this community and people outside. So, I mean, there was a church in Memphis that collected and made these, like, prayer flags that they, you know, that was a few football fields in length. They collected from all over the community. People mailed ribbons that we wove a tapestry, together that’s now an altar frontal that’s used on All Saints and on the Feast of the Martyrs of Saint Stephen’s that we celebrate annually. People made monetary gifts. Bishops collected money to help us build a labyrinth that is on our campus and that is open twenty-four hours a day that anyone can walk to honor those that died and those that survived. And so in some ways, planting little seeds of hope that now, like, it’s all connected, that there’s a responsibility of Saint Stephen’s to provide community and hospitality in this world that has come as a response to the way that people have loved us. And it’s like today as the website goes live, it is like that daffodil breaking through after a long winter.

H:           Oh, gosh. John, I know you were a Leaders Way Fellow, and that was before I came on Transforming Leaders. But I wonder, like, how … give me a little timeline. Was this project underway when you became a Leaders Way Fellow? 

J:             Yes. Yeah. A little bit. I’m trying to think if we had hired Mary Bea yet. I don’t know. We were we were in conversation maybe. That was … I did the fellowship, and the first one, was that summer of ‘23? 

M:           That was when we were in that tweener moment because I had “retired” from parish ministry. 

H:           With scare quotes. Sure.

M:           And then, trying to figure out where do we worship, and my husband’s a priest too. He works at the University of Alabama Birmingham. But so we went to the Celtic service that John mentioned earlier, and we had been looking and we walked out and my husband grabbed my hand and I looked at him and we both had tears in our eyes and I said, We found home. So that Celtic service and that was the spring of 2023. And then when I told John that we loved it, he was … he was kind and then asked, Would you wanna preach at that service sometimes? And then it just the beginning of the end from there. So you did go to Leaders Way because you came back super excited. I remember talking about that. Yeah.

B:            Yeah. God is sneaky. It’s a persistent theme of the Leaders Way conversations that somehow … 

H:           Sneaky God. 

B:            You know, we make these plans and God, you know, gets God’s way. 

H:           God has already planted a surprise daffodil.

B:            Right. Right. 

H:           So, John, what was that? Was the experience of being a Leaders Way Fellow interwoven with the Threshold Center work? 

J:             Yes. So the … I mean, one, there’s a practical project, which I think mine was creating a process for listening to the congregation to how to kind of move this vision forward. But when I think of what was really helpful, what I loved about the week was the interdisciplinary approach. And so I think the lecture that was most meaningful to me was by Mark Brackett who wrote Permission to Feel and he runs the Center for Emotional Intelligence at Yale. And in this way of what was helpful is to understand how our emotions– how to be thoughtful in the tools of, like, every emotion’s fine, but you don’t always wanna stay in one place. And so how do we … how do we pay attention to who we are and understand our own language? And that’s about being spiritually, emotionally healthy. And so this kind of … what it gave me is permission to embrace a model of ministry that’s interdisciplinary and is outside of the realm of just Christianity. That there there’s wisdom in offering, you know … I think I think Molly’s work on breathing and to be healthy and well fits perfectly. It’s what our community needs. If there’s all these stories in scripture of Jesus healing, that doesn’t mean that he’s telling people about Jesus. That means he’s caring for their body, minds, and souls.

               So, you know, to think back, I think that approach gave me, or helped at least encourage, and support, being outside of the realms of just doing something for the church, within that church language and framework. 

B:            Mhmm. Oh, I’m so glad that that workshop was helpful. And I heard you, Mary Bea, talk about a third space. And I think this is really connected to the connecting of the dots, John, that you were doing. And I wonder if you could define that term, because it’s one that is really exciting to me. I think so much of our church growth in the coming days is going to come for people who are courageous enough to create these third spaces. But can you speak to how you understand the third space and how the Threshold Center is trying to fulfill a kind of third space mission?

M:           Mhmm. That’s a fabulous question. So the way I understand it, the way I experience it, it becomes a place where people who perhaps wouldn’t normally find themselves in conversation together find themselves in conversation together. And so it’s like you could think like there’s one place through work with people with similar kinds of work experience or goals or vocational interests are in one place. But then you might have somebody down the street who lives close by that has no interest like that, but there’s all this other shared interest.

               And so that’s kind of the idea. And in specific context–the Threshold Center is a ministry of Saint Stephen’s Episcopal Church. Like, it’s a part of that. But we are very aware that there are a lot of people for a lot of different reasons who don’t feel comfortable coming into a church and experiencing community or programs. There might be trauma. There might be all kinds of things that would inform that choice, but they’re still yearning and seeking for some kind of deep spiritual connection. And we’re being very clear, this is not a worshiping community. Worship happens across the street at Saint Stephen’s in the parish. We hope and believe and are already experiencing that some people might go, Oh, a place that would start this, we would worship there. And thank God, come on, you know, bring all of who you are. We need you. And then some may not get there, but we know they’ll experience the holy. They know … we know they’ll experience healing. We know that they’ll experience belonging in a way that perhaps they’re really yearning for. 

H:           If you’re enjoying the Leaders Way podcast, you might like to join us in person as a Leaders Way fellow. The Leaders Way Yale certificate program combines the best of seminary, retreat, and pilgrimage. Fellows meet in person at Yale for a week in June, then continue their learning in mentor groups online. To learn more, visit our website. 

B:            You might also like to join us for one of our upcoming online courses or workshops. Our learning space is hopeful, courageous, and imaginative. This year’s offerings include courses and workshops on prayer, preaching, conflict management, and more. Clergy and lay leaders from every country, denomination, and seminary background are warmly welcome to join us for all of our programs. 

J:             Mary Bea and I were having a conversation earlier today brainstorming about kind of the name of the large gathering room in the Threshold Center and, you know, trying to acknowledge exactly what you’re naming. And, you know, we’re kind of floating around, you know, this idea that comes from England of a village green, like the meeting space for play happens in a community. And I don’t think we’re gonna call it that, but the idea, of how do you draw people together, and if everybody’s–I mean, y’all have been to the doctor’s office recently. Everybody’s sitting there looking at their phones instead of each other. Like, how do we create play places where people interact? And I really feel that at least in the South, what I have experienced is people are territorial about their churches. And so it’s you almost feel guilty if you go to another church’s events. And so it feels like we’ve created a space where people can come regardless of their affiliation and build community and break some of those silos. And if they go back to their church as better leaders, better equipped, better well, then thanks be to God. 

B:            Yeah. I mean, spaces like this are so needed, and I can hear the joy and the love that you’ve infused this space with because, as you say, there’s some folks who are not yet ready to enter a formal liturgical worship space, right? A church. So they’re not ready for that one space, but they’re also quite aware that secular culture, as we’ve designed it, with this hyper focus on consumerism, on accomplishment, on political identity, right, I mean, the fabric of our secular culture is just being pulled apart. That space is also–is not accessible or not a– not a healthy space designed for thriving.

H:           And to be fair people just stay at home because everything’s expensive. 

B:            So you’ve created this beautiful healing third space, which is porous, I presume, porous both to the holy, porous to the church, but it’s also porous to the world, in a way that’s just really, just really exciting. I hope we could come see it. But, for those of us who have … are not yet blessed to have visited, what might we see when we when we arrive there? And what sorts of programs, you know, would we bump into in the in the coming weeks? 

M:           You know, so it is a sweet, sweet building as I said. And, actually, this summer, we’re gonna go through some renovations to create less of a feeling of being in a sanctuary when you’re in this space that we need to name, whether it’s the Commons or the Village Green or whatever it becomes. And … but now what you would encounter would be, like, we’ve made a big deal about when people come that they feel welcome, but they don’t feel mauled. So there’s, like, we’re very interested in balance. And we even have, like, a threshold you pass through as you walk into the room. And, we have guidelines for being in community that we, you know, that really speak to respect and all of that.

               And so some of the programs that we have coming up or have just started: there’s a program called Parenting with Art. And it’s not about necessarily using art with your children, but offering encounters with art for your children as a part of your parenting tool, whether that’s music, going to museums, different things, but just a way to open up children at a young age and parents to see this as a tool for connection with our children. There’s a men’s group that’s gonna be starting very soon, and they’re kind of figuring out who and what they wanna be. Tonight, we have a program starting with Salam Green, who is phenomenal, and she’s doing a four week series on peace through poetry. And, she’s the Birmingham Poet Laureate and also affiliated with UAB hearts arts and medicine. And so she’s going to help us create our own poetry of our lives as a tool for sustenance and peace. 

               We have another person who’s doing a four week series on listening as an act of love. We’ve also had a Zen Buddhist master come and speak to us about mindfulness. Rabbi Stephen Henkin, one of the larger temples downtown came and spoke about Sabbath as a spiritual practice. So one of the things we’re learning and we’re playing with is what is the sweet spot of how long programs should last, what do people want, how much should we charge. We make scholarship available. You don’t even ask a question. You just send an email to me, and you are scholarship-ed. And we know a lot of people don’t feel comfortable asking for a scholarship. So we’re learning all that. Any wisdom anyone has to share with us, I think we’re finding the response to be very positive. And we’re learning, you know, some of the things we do we’ll go, That wasn’t so great. And some of them, we’re gonna be like, oh my gosh. But so far, I’ve been really fortunate.  One thing I wanna say too … 

J:             I participated in a forest bathing retreat that was three hours on our campus in the fall. And, just … Why don’t I spend more time outside laying in the dirt and putting my feet up on a tree and listening to my breath. And it was a guided meditation. It was fantastic, where I felt a sense of peace with this world in a way that I haven’t in a while. But it also made for some interesting conversations because the campus is pretty busy. And so there … but, you know, there are several people there– “Why are there 15 people in the woods with their feet up on trees?” That was interesting for our preschool to have a little bit more fun that day on the playground. 

M:           Yeah. Oh, that’s beautiful. And we’re doing two other things I wanna mention. One thing we came up with was that we didn’t … everything didn’t need to be a multi-works/week series. And so we’re doing this thing called third Thursday, where the third Thursday of every month, we’re gonna have someone come in and do something fun and different. So one week, it’s gonna be line dancing. Another week, it’s sound bathing. You know? I mean, it’s just all over the map, but it’s just like this drop-in third Thursday kind of thing. 

               And we’re really honored and grateful that the Collegeville Institute has reached out to us and that they’re doing a pop-up writing, you know, symposium here for a day at workshop and bringing in the Poet Laureate for the state of Alabama and Lauren Winner, who is a phenomenal Episcopal priest and writer, here for the day to make this available to the creative writers here in Birmingham to come to the Threshold Center and get some great one-on-one coaching and also, to have this fabulous symposium with these wonderful people, Ashley Jones and Lauren. And so, I feel so honored and grateful that I would say it feels like the right person at the right time. Like, we’re working hard. It’s not like we just sit here and things pop in out of the sky. But it does feel like, like, on our advisory board, the talent of that group of people, like, it’s not just Mary Bea and John doing this. It’s so many good people. 

H:           That seems key. There are a few things you guys have mentioned that have made me think, Oh, I see, like, why they haven’t just hit a wall. One of the things is you just mentioned you keep learning. Like there’s one way this conversation could sound where it would be like, they have accomplished an amazing thing. Let us celebrate and rest on our laurels, but I’m not hearing that at all. And the other thing is when, John, you were talking about listening to your congregation and setting up a system to listen well to your congregation. This is really a community endeavor. And it’s the kind of thing that, like, ties together a lot of issues that we hear of parishes having, such as “What do we do with our property?” That’s a big one these days. I noticed on your website, there’s a little forthcoming bit that’s like, I forget, not a starter pack, but like a sort of how-to blueprint thing that sounds like it’s in the works. And I can imagine somebody listening to this conversation and simultaneously feeling energized and then feeling daunted. And so I’m excited you’re already thinking about that. And I wonder if there are any practical elements that you’ve learned, things about that you could pass on to other people thinking about whether they might be able to create a center in their community. 

M:           I have a couple thoughts. John, you probably do too. The one that you’ve lifted up already, Hannah, listen. So … because what works here at Saint Stephen’s or in, you know, Birmingham, Alabama may not be what your community needs. Look. See what else is already out there. There’s no need to duplicate effort, but there might be great collaboration partners. And so there’s no reason to duplicate effort. You know? What are your strengths? Do a strengths assessment. What, you know, what do we already have? And a lot of those strengths are the people. So, for example, when Keith Cromwell, who is this dynamic director of Red Mountain Theater, said he was excited and he’s now our current board chair, he brings relationships and skills that are unique, that are important, and every single person has. So I guess it’ll be look, it would be listen, and then it would be–which I did not do this, and John can attest to it. Start small. Like our soft opening in the fall, I just had so many ideas and we had so much fun, but thank God, like …  people came. But it’s okay. John’s been a great guide for me in that way. Like, it’s okay. We can start small. You know? So maybe just start small and pray. Maybe the most important piece is start with prayer. So not only listen to your community, but listen to where the spirit might be leading something and be okay when you mess up. Just be gentle with yourself and go, Oh, yeah. Alright. That wasn’t so great. Let’s carry on. 

H:           What did we learn? 

J:             Yeah. I think we get wrapped up in having to have all the details figured out, and …  we have time. I forget that sometimes. It’s like, it’s okay. It doesn’t have to be–we don’t have to solve everything this week. I think one of the things I’ve realized, I think that pertains to leadership is–part of leadership’s getting out of the way. And to go where the energy seems to be. You know, part of it is, you know, this is not about my vision. It’s not my dream. I get to connect people. That’s really my role as director of the church. 

H:           I kind of want to go one layer deeper and, you know, feel free to not answer this, but I know we have a lot of priests who listen. Priests who are concerned about their stewardship campaigns and fundraising and all of these things. Is how do you financially make something like this work? 

J:             I mean, I will … I will say this doesn’t need a fancy new building. Part of this is just to be good stewards of our resources. So we have not done a campaign. I mean, I don’t wanna say this is, I mean, I think the capital costs alone for the last two years total at the end will be about $300,000, if I had to guess, which is not–but it would look like a program that a lot of people would say we need to go out and raise $6,000,000 to build a center. I think it’s just, like, not everything needs to be new and shiny for it to be beautiful and meaningful. 

H:           Oh, what a good point. And it’s like Mary Bea was saying, a matter of looking, listening, and paying attention to the actual community that you’re serving and what’s already there. In this case, you already had a building. 

M:           Right. And one thing I would say that probably is a growing edge for us, which might be really lovely for some of the folks who are listening, is it doesn’t have to happen on our campus. Like, we have a campus that lends itself to this, but we have to be careful not to be stuck on our campus. Like, how can we go out and do a program for first responders who took such good care of Saint Stephen’s? And these are folks on the frontline hurting in a very unique way. And so there may be collaboration partners like a library, another church that wants to do it with you, you know … getting you know, who knows? Book groups. I don’t know. It doesn’t have to happen physically here. And one of the things I really hope– I’m dreaming that we do, not only that we’re like a model that we could go, “Hey, try this, try this.” And people find us to be a helpful resource, But that we’re offering programs. Yes, the physical connection is important, but also that we develop some things that are available to people online that they can access down the road. I would encourage people who have energy for this to access the resources already under … in front of them. People, locations, relationships, all of that, and build. Just use that as your building point. And trust that God’s right there with you, ready to hand the hammer over or whatever it is you need for the next … the next piece for building what your dream is.  

B:            I’m thinking perhaps as a way of closing, what would you say to someone who maybe is considering coming for the first time? And maybe they’re not a … they’re not a churchgoer, and this might actually require some amount of courage and risk-taking. How would you encourage them, if they’re considering coming to the Threshold Center, and what do you hope that they’ll find there? 

H:           I also am wondering as the Berkeley communications person, how do you reach them? 

M:           So the “reach them” is not easy, and that’s one of the things we’re trying to figure out. Like, we’re not … I wouldn’t say that we’re there yet. One thing we did do is we had a labyrinth walk specifically for the recovery community. And so we included some of the folks that work specifically with people in recovery, and we had 30 people show up. And that was really cool. And none of them go to church. And five of them stayed for the Celtic service, which was cool. 

H:           So once somebody’s at the labyrinth or thinking about coming to …

M:           Yeah. So, right, that question. I think what I would say to someone, Brandon, that’s such a great question, is something along the lines of “You are welcome, who you are, how you are. We need you; your heart, your life experience, your perspective, to be a part of this. Try it.

If it’s not comfortable, there’s it’s not like you have to stay forever. And as Parker Palmer says, nothing is a share or die experience. But if you’re feeling at all intrigued, trust me and trust the community, and we have guidelines to create safety. There’s no evangelizing going on here. There’s no trying to get people to an end game. It’s really about the questions and the connections and the shared wisdom and appreciating that everybody has something to offer.” 

B:            John, I wonder about you. What’s your hope for the person who comes to the Threshold Center? 

J:             It’s interesting because you’ve just caused me to– the questions challenged me in a way that I wasn’t ready for. One of the things that’s interesting is we’re trying to address loneliness within our community, and we’ve just put out a press release for the whole country.

So it’s an interesting dynamic. Why would somebody come from New Haven, Connecticut? I think they would come to learn about how to take something back to their own community. 

H:           That’s … yeah. That’s what I think, too.

J:             That’s probably the answer. And to see a story come to life where we don’t have to have all the answers, we don’t have to have all the resources at our disposal, I think partially due to Mary Bea’s creativity and the … some incredible thoughtful people within our community. We’ve been able to do something with a relatively … we put the right pieces in play, but it hasn’t … we’ve done it without a huge impact to the, you know …  it’s about 10% of our budget if that you know, over the last you know, which is not a lot for a new endeavor like this. And so I think all of us are looking how to do more with less. And so that’s probably why you would come unless there’s just an offering that really speaks to you. But our hope is to draw the people out of the Birmingham area that are feeling isolated alone and help them find deep and meaningful connection and to claim something within their own lives that is sacred and holy, whatever that means. 

H:           I wanna enjoy more flowers at churches, and now I wanna be invited to line dancing at a church. And I’m just excited in a whole new way. 

J:             And if you come to Saint Stephen’s on a Sunday, you’ll walk out with honey that comes from our apiary. 

H:           Oh my goodness.

B:             Well, John and Mary Bea, thank you so much for your ministry, for all you’re doing, for the trust that it must require to do this. And please bring our gratitude to all the community members whose hands are literally creating this, space. And, yeah, we look forward to visiting soon. I wonder if one of you or both of you would bless us with a prayer or a blessing.

M:           Alright. Let us pray. As you cross the thresholds of your life, may you find peace in being close and being held by your Creator. May you find a sense of community and sharing your life with fellow travelers. May you find joy in meaningful pursuits. And most of all, may you find that you are more than enough, and all of the thresholds that you cross, you are crossing with the faithful who cross with you. In God’s loving name, we pray. Amen. 

All:         Amen.

H:           Thanks for listening to the Leaders Way podcast. You can learn more about this episode at berkleydivinity.yale.edu/podcast. Follow along with us on Instagram at theleadersway.podcast. 

B:            And you can rate and review us on your podcast app and be sure to hit follow so you never miss an episode. And if you’d like this episode, please share it with a friend. 

H:           Until next time.

B:            Peace be with you.