The Rev’d Dr. Jesse Zink, Principal at Montreal Diocesan Theological College, joins us to discuss living faithfully in our fast-paced, crisis-shaped world. We talk about his new book, Faithful, Creative, Hopeful: Fifteen Theses for Christians in a Crisis-Shaped World, and we reflect on insights like fostering a culture of contentment and enoughness amidst the prevailing ethos of “more.”
47: Apocalyptic Clarity with Jesse Zink
Hosts: Brandon Nappi and Hannah Black
Guest: Jesse Zink
Production: Goodchild Media
Music: Wayfaring Stranger, Theodicy Jazz Collective
Art: Ella Landino
Instagram: @theleadersway.podcast
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Brandon: Dr. Hannah Black, how are you today?
Hannah: Dr. Brandon Nappi, I am well. I am exceedingly well now that we are here together.
B: Aw, exceedingly well. I’m so glad. We have some important things to talk about today. I, well, I’m not gonna waste any time talking about Taylor Swift not winning any Grammys. We’re not gonna waste our time with that. What we are going to talk about is rest. And I think this was your idea. I wonder where did this come from?
H: Well, I know we’re gonna talk a little bit about rest in this episode, but I also just went to the Forma conference–shout out to the Form a friends out there. And, yeah, this was a theme of the conference. We talked about work stoppage. We talked about rest. We talked about rest as resistance. And I felt a little convicted, regarding my ways.
B: I have seen a couple of emails come on the weekend and after-hours from you. I’ve also been one to send them, so I am equally convicted.
H: Well, I’ve … I mean, someone wise once told me it’s about what works for you.
B: It’s about … well, that’s true too. Okay. So, give me … I want to hear some of your favorite ways of resting. And listeners, like, if you haven’t emailed us before, this would be a great way to be in touch or send us a DM on Instagram or wherever you find us.
H: You know what I’m gonna do? I’m gonna make a post that says “What’s a favorite way to rest?” on Instagram at theleadersway.podcast.
B: Okay, yes. Mhmm. I love that. I love that.
H: This reminds me of the question we asked of the people at Forma, which is –What’s your favorite way to play? I’ve actually been like pondering that. Or is that the same … what’s the Venn diagram between rest and play? I feel like there’s a chunky middle.
B: There is a chunky–a chonky middle. Yep. That’s gonna be our next segment. A chunky middle. And we can talk about …
H: A chunky middle, and we can talk about Venn diagrams.
B: Things that overlap. I think we’re
H: The chunky middle!
B: I am kidding 0%. Yeah. But you just asked me a question and my ADHD brain totally forgot. What’s the overlap between play and rest?
H: Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.
B: That’s a good question. I’d have to think about it, but I think it has to do with, like energy expenditure.
H: I feel that. I just feel like when we think of rest, we think of doing nothing, but I think that’s wrong. I’m here to challenge that notion. I feel so rested after I go to Disneyland.
B: Wow. It’s all coming out today.
H: That’s not true. That’s not true. My feet hurt after I go to Disneyland, but my insides are, are buoyed.
B: Yeah. Like I play volleyball every/almost every Monday night. And I leave having expended a lot of energy. It’s playful. It’s delightful. It brings so much joy to my life, but I don’t think I can call it rest. It’s certainly renewing, but it’s not restful. Like, I need to rest after that.
H: Some activities are very life giving, and there’s expenditure happening.
B: Yes. Mhmm.
The one that really expresses the chunky middle of the Venn diagram for me where there’s, like, rest happening in ample amounts, but also energy expending in in ample amounts, but I walk away just feeling great, is cooking. Cooking for my family. You know? So, like, every night I’m cooking for, like, six people. And when I get much above seven or eight people, then it starts to become something else.
But if I’m cooking for anywhere between four and six people, that’s my happy place and I love it as long as it’s not rushed. And my wife, Susan cannot understand this. She’d say like, “This would be the worst torture imaginable. We would be eating cereal out of a box every night if you didn’t enjoy this.”
H: You’d be eating like you were at my house.
B: Okay. I’ll cook for you and cook for some time.
H: You have, and it’s lovely.
B: Yeah. What’s your example of the chunky middle where you’re getting rest, but you’re also kind of expending energy too?
H: Well, right now in the winter, we have been hiking a lot less, which means we’ve been playing video games on our Nintendo Switch. There’s a whole genre that could be referred to as cozy games. So we’re totally late to the party, but we–because most people played this during the pandemic, but we were sad, nose–well, happy, nose-to-the-grindstone PhD students. But, we are playing Animal Crossing. So you just go around harvesting pears from trees and jumping over rivers and going fishing and paying off your mortgage to a little raccoon named Tom and then collecting little things for a museum. So that’s like brain off, body cozy, time together.
Perfect when it’s, like, snowing outside.
B: Oh. Mhmm. Yeah. I get that for you. Like that’s the chunky middle of play and rest. So happy that you have that. I mean, we spend a lot of time reading important things and doing scholarly things and, I don’t know. I think we just gotta play. We gotta rest. We need more of it. And, especially at Yale, it won’t surprise anyone to know there’s sort of a serious vibe that prevails around …
H: Yeah. Not if we can help it, but it’s a force to be reckoned.
B: It’s a force. So we are trying to deconstruct the heavy, serious roduction vibe. Like, I am what I do. I am what I produce. I know.
H: What–my students all know one of the sort of, like, governing ideas for our discussion time is “You are not your ideas.” I know.
B: I wonder I wonder what Descartes would think about that. I’ve been reading some Descartes lately, which is sort of the maybe we’ll save that for another conversation because that’s kinda like the opposite of our vibe right now.
H: Where on the Venn diagram is that? On or off the Venn diagram?
B: That’s like, I’m suffering with insomnia, and everyone hates on Descartes. Right? Like, for the last, like, ten, twenty years, we’re all hating on Descartes. And my curiosity is, like, should we really be hating Descartes as much as we do? And did he really mean what we think he meant? Like, when he says I think, therefore I am. Right?
So anyway, I’m sleuthing around that rabbit hole.
H: Oh, I have so many thoughts about this. Have you ever read Charles Taylor?
B: I feel like I should be saying yes to that. But I hundred percent haven’t.
H: No. No. No. No. It’s like I feel like Charles Taylor doesn’t end up in many curriculums. But Charles Taylor is the key to, like, why we’re hating on our post-Cartesian world. And Charles Taylor’s thing is, like, reenchantment. So the problem with Descartes is the … how the cookie crumbles after “I think, therefore I am.” And the problem is like your embodiment doesn’t really matter. Your like porousness and relationality doesn’t really matter, at least in the same way as it did before. And then, like, certainly nobody’s going around excavating narwhal tusks, painting them, and then being like, this is a unicorn horn, and we will process with it in church. We’ve sort of gone from that to, like, humans are computers.
B: So yeah. And this is we’ll do this another time or maybe we should make this a podcast episode. I wish we could have a conversation with Descartes and maybe he would say like, “Yeah, you took me out of context. I said this one thing. It’s not the only thing I said. And like, I really, I might have had a more expansive vision of my humanity, but you’re critiquing me for all, you know, I don’t know. I don’t know if we’re being unfair to Descartes, but yes, I mean, amen to everything that Charles Taylor said. Oh.
H: Wow. This … that was an unexpected gift of today.
B: I’m sorry, everyone. I’m glad I’m not… I mean, I’m not sorry. I’m glad you’re feeling it as a gift. I’m feeling I I’m feeling like, I led us down a path in the opposite direction of play. A path.
H: No. Name let’s name one more. This is what it’s all about is the reenchantment of everyday life means that play and rest are just as essential as the factoids that are being pumped out of our deliverables, all this, like, capitalist nonsense.
B: Alright. So let’s end strong then.
H: For the record, this is also how I feel about the Reformation. It’s like, okay, Calvin, Luther, some interesting points being made, but then we snowball. And now we’ve got like, what, a bajillion denominations and then all the non-denoms. That’s not what they wanted.
B: Out of control.
H: Yeah. Thank you for coming to my TED talk. Not a random page. Nobody asked for this.
B: Dr. Black’s last lecture. The Reformation has spiraled out of control and we need more enchantment. So, let’s end with, like, where do you find enchantment? It’s such a lovely, lovely word. Like where, where does your wonder just come alive in your life?
H: That’s an excellent question. I wanna hear your answer too. I mean, this is one of the reasons I really love playing with and teaching young children is they help me to see it again. And I’m just gonna I’m just gonna put all my cards out on the table because I’m feeling spicy right now. I don’t know if anybody can tell. This is what’s so genius about the philosophy of Walt Disney, is he points us right to the ability to experience the world like a child.
B: Woah. There is not a card that is not on the table right now. Yeah. I won’t disagree with that. I think for me, the wonder happens in my garden. You know, it’s, you know, I don’t know what time of the year folks will ultimately be listening to this, right? You’ll hear this, you listeners will hear this at all different times of year depending on, you know, when you click on this episode. But, for me, it’s, I feel it so, viscerally in my body like in late February when I’m looking for the first crocus to pop through the frozen ground. Or, it also happens for me a little later in the spring when the ferns, like, unfurl in this, like, prehistoric way. Right? Because ferns are among, like, the oldest plants or, and so I feel like I’m accessing prehistory when I … when all of the ferns in my garden just sort of do their thing.
But, yeah, it’s off in the garden. It’s a lot of other places too, but the garden will do it every time.
H: I totally at some point, we’re gonna need to end up in Cambridge simultaneously so I can show you all the places. But in Clare College, there’s a little kind of, I don’t know, walkway through Clare College called the Avenue. And along the Avenue, in certain times of year, the snowdrops start popping through the grounds.
B: Oh, the snowdrops.
H: And then when it’s nearing Easter, the dandelions or sorry, the daffodils start to pop through and yeah. Oh. I mean, there there’s nothing like it. There’s nothing like it, especially when you’re, like, marching to morning prayer, mustering up the will to do anything. The flowers are like, “Hello.”
B: Oh, the snowdrops will come soon. I can’t wait. I planted 50 or so. So excited. Yes. So planting the snowdrops in my garden was my act of resistance. And the conversation that we had today with, Rev. Dr. Jesse Zink highlighted our call to resist all the forms of dehumanization that we encounter in the world. This is a really rich conversation.
H: Yeah. And one that called back to so many of our other episodes. Like, there’s, the one about values, Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove, the one, “You Are Not a Tree” with Joy. And then you mentioned another one earlier. Which one were you thinking of?
B: The Michael Battle episode around advocacy as being sort of the primary Christian action in the world. Yeah. Yeah.
Here’s a little bit about Rev. Dr. Jesse Zink. He’s an Anglican priest and principal of Montreal Diocesan Theological College. He teaches at McGill University and at the Montreal School of Theology Consortium. He’s an author of many books about church history and global Christianity. His most recent book, Faithful, Hopeful, Creative: 15 Theses for Christian Witness in a Crisis-Shaped World, is one that we’re gonna be talking a lot about in this conversation.
But what I also love is that Jesse has been a DJ, a news reporter, an ambulance driver, in addition to degrees from Cambridge, which must exist because he went there. He has degrees from Acadia University in Nova Scotia, University of Chicago, and our very own Berkeley Divinity School at Yale. So enjoy!
B: Hi, I’m Brandon Nappi.
H: Hi, I’m Hannah Black. And we’re your hosts on the Ledader’s Way Podcast.
B: A Yale podcast empowering leaders, cultivating spirituality, and exploring theology.
H: This podcast is brought to you by Berkeley Divinity School, the Episcopal Seminary at Yale.
B: Reverend Doctor Jesse Zink, we’re so thankful that you’ve joined the Leaders Way podcast.
Jesse Zink:Thanks for having me. It’s great to be with you.
B: You know, your new book, I’ve been really, really enjoying. It’s been the kind of book that sat on, atop my desk for the last few months. And so, you know, I read, you know, a chapter, you know, once a week or so, Faithful, Hopeful, Creative: 15 thesis for Christian witness and a Crisis-Shaped World. So it’s the kind of book that explores the topic that Hannah and I think a lot about, and that is what makes for a vibrant church and how can the church really address some of the urgent needs in the world. So thank you. And you use a word early in the book, that I’ve been bumping into recently, and that is poly-crisis. And I think it describes exactly what I’m what I’m encountering in my life and what I’m actually feeling inside of myself. But can you paint a picture for all of us, in terms of what you’re pointing to, when you use this word polycrisis?
J: Well, I think that, you know, the three of us could sit around and make a pretty long list of places where the word crisis is used in the world today. So, a climate crisis, opioid toxic drug crisis, homelessness crisis, race–racism, economic inequality, migration. We live at a time of, you know, this brutal land war taking place in Europe for the first time since World War II, this explosive conflict in The Middle East. We’re seeing the return of really great power conflict between China and the United States, between nuclear-armed powers at a time when, you know, nuclear arms control agreements are coming to an end. So just in all areas of our life, and that’s only a partial list. Right? If we had more time, we could make that list, even longer. I don’t even think I mentioned mental health on that list, for instance.
And so, some people started to use this word polycrisis, which as the word suggests just means many crises. And I think what’s important about the idea of polycrisis is that the crises are interrelated with one another. Right? So we can think about how migration, for instance well, climate contributes to migration. Right? So as climate change renders some parts of the world or changes the climate and how people have been accustomed to live there, people are living. Right? Peep people are leaving.
We can think about how our our economic system inculcates in a set of values that is leading, I think, in some ways to the housing crisis that we are in the midst of as well as mental health. So all of these crises are related– are interrelated. You know, an another phrase that, might be used to describe this is word I’ve heard used by people who think about sustainability a lot, which is wicked problems. Right? A wicked problem is a problem that is so intertwined and intertangled. It’s like a skein of wool that gets all tangled up on itself.
H: You’re speaking our language, Jesse. Yes.
J: And that –if you if you try to, you know, just pull on one piece of it, it only makes it worse. And so the combined impact in a poly crisis of all these crisis is greater than any one of them individually or all added up. And the reason that this is significant for us as Christians and as Christian leaders is that from a Christian perspective, we are somewhat far-off from the vision of the wholeness and fullness of life that Jesus Christ preaches and enacts. We are guided now in our world by an ethos and a set of values that is generating these crises, and that as Christians, we have something different to say.
And so in this book, I was really interested in trying to speak about this, as I say in the subtitle, a crisis-shaped world. What is it about our world that has got us to this point, and how can we as Christians respond to this global situation? And so in the book, primarily for focus, because I can’t write about everything, I focus primarily on climate, on economics, and on human migration and how they’re interwoven with one another.
H: So yeah. Gosh. We’re looking at this crisis-shaped world. You have this sense that Christianity has something to offer, and then you develop 15 theses, which is very Martin Luther of you. But how did you end up with theses? Why that approach and what do you think … I don’t wanna get too ahead of ourselves, but what does Christianity have to offer in the form of theses?
J: Yeah. So, you know, this book originates really in my own work in theological education. So I’m the principal of a theological college in Montreal. And, you know, like you, I spend a lot of time with people who are interested in committing themselves and their ministry to the church. But they’ve got lots of questions about that, and they’ve got lots of questions about the world and are asking, you know, given this, what does the good news of Jesus have to say about this context that we live in right now?
So a lot of this material really originated in the classroom, in my teaching, in discussions with students and many other people. And I wanted to write something that I felt was responsive to this moment, because I do think we all share this sense. You know? Whenever I go around and use the word polycrisis, a lot of people say, oh, yeah. Like, that’s it. You know? Like that that resonates with me. Thank you for giving me that language. You know, and it’s not my language. I’m just I’m just bringing it to the fore. And people wanna know, what does our faith have to say about this?
And so I wanted to write something that was accessible, that was really broadly applicable, and available not only to clergy, but to lay groups and churches and others. And, ultimately, I found that the structuring device of the thesis was important for two reasons. One, because I do think it’s valuable, and I think Martin Luther recognized this, that making declarative statements is just a really helpful thing. You know? You don’t have to agree with them, but it at least gives you a point to say, yes. I agree with that part, but I don’t agree with this part. And I say in this book, look, this is 15 things to say, but there’s more that could be said. And, also, this is book is an invitation to a response. Right? It’s a contribution to a discussion and an invitation to a response, and a thesis is, I think, one way, to invite that response.
And I think the other reason that the thesis was helpful is that it’s a useful structuring device. It allows me to touch on a range of topics. Some of these theses could have been whole books in themselves, but it allows me to touch on a range of topics. And I was really going for breadth here, to help us think about a broad possibility for how we respond to this world that we find ourselves in as Christians. Yeah.
H: Polytheses for a polycrisis.
B: Well, I found that rhetorical approach really helpful or that organizing approach precisely for the reason that you’re describing–because it invites a response. And I think what I’ve discovered in myself as I grow overwhelmed by the many levels of crisis that we’re experiencing is I kinda do what I think a lot of us do who hang out at universities, and we think, “Oh, I have to learn more.” Right? And so I go to my news sources, and I go to books, and I go to articles, and I listen to podcasts. And actually, what this is producing in me is just a whole lot of paralysis. And so there is something really kind of crisp and evocative and something that leads me to actually wanna respond or do something in how you’ve structured the book that I found really, really helpful. And I don’t know if that was part of the intention, but maybe you can speak to maybe what’s a common response, and that is, like, overwhelmed and paralysis and immobility in response to these, like, multivalent crises that are going on. I’m sure you see it in your students.
J: Well, and I certainly feel it in myself as well. So, you know, we’ve been talking about the subtitle here, you know, Theses for a Crisis Shaped World. But, ultimately, there’s a title here, Faithful, Creative, and Hopeful. And, really, I think that’s where I’m trying to orient not only Christians, but also Christian communities that a faithfulness to the Christian tradition as we’ve received it, a creativity within that tradition, and a hopefulness that looks forward to the future, not only to the future, but in the present as well.
And I think part of the way to do that is by diagnosing the situation that we’re in accurately, seeing where we are, and then I think being clear about what are the values, what are the ideas that we want to shape our communities, and then how are those ideas played out in practice or lived out in practice in the lives of our Christian communities. And, again, there’s only 15 theses here. I’m not gonna talk about everything that could be talked about. But I hope that in this book, I’ve been able to lay out some of those ideas and practices that can ground and shape communities, in a way that is aware of and responsive to the reality of the world we live in.
B: I was really intrigued, in the course of the book you describe the need in a crisis-shaped world for an apocalyptic clarity. And I wonder if you could share a little bit about what you mean by apocalyptic clarity. It sounds like a great band name. So maybe if Hannah and I could take this on the road or something, we’re gonna call it apocalyptic clarity.
H: Apocalyptic clarity—that is the new name of this podcast, Apocalyptic Clarity.
J: Well, I would be delighted if you did that. So, well … the word apocalyptic can be used in a number of different ways, and I’m using it here in this book in its original meaning. The Greek word apocalypse means uncovering or revealing. What is being unveiled, when you think or see apocalyptically? And apocalyptic means that we pay attention to the structures of the society in which we find ourselves and the powers and forces that are shaping, influencing the opportunities and constraints in our lives.
So I think about the book of Ephesians, for instance. Right? The book of Ephesians, the bulk of the book of Ephesians, the reason so many people love it, at least I do. You know, chapters two, three, and four have, you know, great material about how we’re meant to live in our Christian communities. Jesus breaks down the walls and spiritual gifts and all that wonderful stuff. But chapter one begins with this vision of a spiritual realm, of Christ’s triumph, and being raised to God’s right hand. And then chapter six is also clear that there are powers that obstruct that spiritual realm and also obstruct the life of the Christian community today. In the classic translation used in the King James version, it’s powers and principalities. But there are other forces out there that constrain, that affect the life of the Christian community, and that mean that, Jesus’ kingdom doesn’t just roll in, just because Jesus preached about it. Right?
And I use the word clarity in response to that simply because in the book of Revelation, which is the most thoroughgoing apocalyptic book in the New Testament, the word that’s repeated in the book of Revelation is the word see. You know, the John the divine is always saying “See … see … see.” It’s a series of visions. Right? So from that, I just came up with clarity. Sometimes people talk about the apocalyptic imagination.
But what I mean is simply that apocalyptic clarity is a way of seeing in the world, of being in the world that is attentive to these broader structures and forces, at work in our lives. And there’s a lot of reasons why I think it’s important, but I think one of the primary reasons, that’s it’s important is that it decenters ourselves in the story. It tells us that we are not the main characters of this story. God is. God is acting. God is acting through Christ, but God is not the only one who is pursuing a kingdom out there. There are other powers and principalities.
And the response of people who live and who see with an apocalyptic clarity is not to pack it all in, not to give up in despair, but it’s also not to rise up in in revolution. I think that the word that I use is the word resistance, that people who live with an apocalyptic clarity are called to live in ways that resist the powers of this world that deform us and take us away from the kingdom of God and to live in a way, in community, that proclaims and embodies and gives some foretaste of this kingdom, this reign of God that was at the center of Jesus’ ministry.
H: I love that you went back to the Greek meaning of apocalypse. There’s–I think I maybe have talked about this on this podcast before because I just find it so delightful–but Eugene Peterson, the guy who wrote the Message translation so again, Brandon … Marmite, maybe you love it, maybe you hate it. He has this great little book about the book of Revelation where he is talking about the Greek sense of apocalypse and saying, well, apocalypso is like when you take the top off of a pot of stew and inside you’re like, “Wow, behold, there’s stew!” And my friend Hannah and I just think that’s the funniest example you could possibly give, like, “Mmmm, brown goo. Behold!”
Anyway, yes, “apocalypse:” to reveal. Love that. And I’m thinking about these forces, these powers, these principalities that inhibit the rollout of the heavenly kingdom, one of them being economic structures. And I mean, this is something I like to jokingly complain about all the time. But could you give us a kind of a higher-level thinking about how economic structures can actually be prohibitive to Christian witness?
J: So there’s an immense amount that we could say about this. And I think probably my bottom line here is that I would just be so happy if in the church, we could talk more about economics and the kind of economic values and ethos that shape our lives. And for sure, people are doing that, right? Right there at Yale, Katherine Tanner has spent a lot of time on this. Pope Francis has written about this. Justin Welby, when he was Archbishop of Canterbury, wrote about this. So I would love for us to talk more about this. I begin, though, I’m influenced and shaped by, for many years, the writings of a man named Michael Sandel, who’s a philosopher and an economic historian who teaches at Harvard. He was famous fifteen years ago for that big course he did on justice. But Michael Sandel has just written I think really wonderfully about the economic history of The United States and more broadly of the North Atlantic world, to say that we’ve moved, in his language, from having a market economy, to being a market society. The values of the markets have come to infiltrate and be part of more and more domains of our life. And along the way, that’s displacing democratic decision making. It’s weakening the public sphere. It’s edging in on territory that had previously belonged to religion and to Christianity in particular.
And the result is that Christianity, and so much else, is being pushed to the side. And there’s lots of ways to illustrate this and in the book I give lots of different ways. But, basically, I think that we live in a society in which, by default, we’re being inculcated with a set of values that are at odds with what the Christian gospel has to say. And at the same time, it’s undercutting all that the church relies on for our ministry. And so in the book, I talk about lots of different things, you know; the phenomenon of the gig economy and side hustles, of algorithmically designed work schedules so that, you know, your McDonald’s or your Starbucks has just the minimum number of people that are necessary to see it through a particular shift and that workers don’t find out about their schedule until just, you know, the day before it begins. Talk about how we live in a society where the core of our identity is found in being consumers, where we are meant to think about ourselves and our own consumption first and foremost. And that really the highest value of all is convenient consumption, where the only value that matters is the value that’s the price that is determined by a market exchange.
Talk about the attention economy and how we live at a time when more and more companies are trying to seize our attention, and to monetize that attention. I think all of these things have really big downsides. For sure, they make consumption easy. And, you know, insofar as we care about that, then that’s good. But there’s lots of ways in which all of these things pose obstacles to the church. So for instance, you know, in a sense, Christian ministry at its fundamental core relies on bringing together a group of people in the same place, whether virtual or in person, in the same place at roughly the same time on a regular schedule. But if people have jobs where they only find out their schedule a day before the schedule begins and it changes every week or every month, or if people are just so exhausted from the hustle to survive, then that’s just gonna undercut Christian ministry. If we’re meant to think of ourselves just as consumers all the time, well then we kinda are missing out on a huge part of what it means to be a human being made in the image of God. You know, we’re made in the image of a God who creates. I think the only time that the word consume is used in reference to God in the Bible is in Exodus when God appears in the burning bush and the bush was not consumed.
You know, when we talk about an intention economy and staying focused on things, really, we struggle with that, and it’s leading to, you know, the phrase that Pope Francis has made so central to his ministry, “the globalization of indifference.” You know, idolatry is nothing new to people of faith. It just means putting something in the place of God, holding something else to be of ultimate worth than God. But I think a big form that idolatry takes in our world today–and by no means am I innocent of this. I am part of the same system just as all the rest of us are–but a big form that idolatry takes is, I think, precisely this; in the way that our economic structures are conditioning us.
And again, I don’t have all the answers to us, to this, but I think that when we when we see with an apocalyptic clarity, these are the kinds of things that we see, and we can begin to think about how we construct our societies, and our Christian communities in response.
H: If you’re enjoying the Leaders Way podcast, you might like to join us in person as a Leaders Way fellow. The Leaders Way Yale certificate program combines the best of seminary, retreat, and pilgrimage. Fellows meet in person at Yale for a week in June, then continue their learning in mentor groups online. To learn more, visit our website.
B: You might also like to join us for one of our upcoming online courses or workshops. Our learning space is hopeful, courageous, and imaginative. This year’s offerings include courses and workshops on prayer, preaching, conflict management, and more.
H: Clergy and lay leaders from every country, denomination, and seminary background are warmly welcome to join us for all of our programs.
B: You used a phrase that I’d love you to tease out a little bit. And, it’s a phrase that can be really fraught, and that is, “Christian values.” And “Christian values” can mean a whole lot of things. And I wonder if you can name for us sort of what are the core convictions that you’re seeing at the center of Christianity at a moment when Christian values, at least here in American culture, have been displaced by popular—populism, or nationalism, or a kind of Christian nationalism which distorts the gospel, until it’s almost unrecognizable. So I think there’s an opportunity for us to be really clear about what we mean by Christian values. Would you would you help us, professor?
J: Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you for asking that question because I do know that that phrase Christian values can make a lot of people go, “Ooooh! I’m not sure that’s what we wanna be talking about.” I mean, first of all, let’s say what we’re not talking about. Right? Because, because I do think value is such an important word. And in a market-based society, value is so important. But the only value–value is narrowed. It’s constrained to price. Right? You know, the example I always love to give is sports stadiums. Right? When I was growing up, I had lots of relatives who lived in Ontario. My favorite baseball team was the Toronto Blue Jays. And when I was a child, they opened the Skydome, this amazing stadium where, like, the roof retracted and everything. And I went to a game there. The first season it was open, I was like, this is an amazing place. And part of it was the name, which, like, evoked something in me, right, as a sort of, like, however old child that I was. We don’t name stadiums like that anymore. The way we name stadiums is we create a market and say, well, whatever company can pay the most to name this …
H: This is so true. And so RIP the Anaheim Ducks Pond, long lost to the Honda Center. That’s right. I mean, we all I mean, it’s no longer the Skydome. It’s the Rogers Center. Right? And it’s not named after some guy named Roger. Let me tell you that. It’s named after a telecommunications company that everybody hates. And why is it? It’s because a market was created where there had previously not been one, and it said the only value that’s associated with the name of this stadium is however many millions of dollars Rogers is willing to pay. So that’s a place where value is being debated, but we’re not really talking about it. Right?
And so I wanna say that there actually are other values. And forget about Christian values. Like, let’s just take value that isn’t price. But as a Christian, you know, some of the things that I write about in this book are… mercy. Right? You know, we’re all talking just a few weeks after the inaugural sermon by the Bishop of Washington, Mary Anne Budde. Right? Thought it was so striking, and I think part of the reason there was such a powerful response to that sermon is precisely because she talked about mercy. She’s like … she put mercy right at the center. And if there is a Christian value, it is the value of mercy, which– I write about this at greater length in the book, but, I mean, that is just so core to what Jesus is about. I write in the book about the importance of diversity or catholicity, the way in which the Christian community is called to hold together all this different diversity. We do this very imperfectly, but hold together all of this diversity, into one body.
I talk about the importance of giving and receiving. Right? That we’re called to be people who don’t just consume all the time, but actually give the gifts that we have into the body of Christ and receive from others as well. And in that community, we create, we produce with all that God has given us that we receive from God and give into the community. So there there’s a lot more we could say about those values. But, I think that’s the conversation about value, that we need to have. Let me just say last thing on this piece about value. You know, the word that’s related in my mind here is the word dignity. And, you know, in the baptismal covenant that’s used in the Episcopal church and the Anglican church in Canada, we talk about respecting the dignity of every human being. Well, the word dignity is really closely related to the word value. Like, we think that human beings have a dignity, and we think that because that’s what our Christian tradition tells us, that we are all called to develop as the people that God has called us to be. And there’s so much about our economic system and our crisis-shaped world that is standing in the way of the realization of that dignity for so many people who aren’t already wealthy or well-connected.
B: It’s occurring to me … I’m gonna connect the dots between a couple of Leaders Way episodes. We had a great conversation recently with Michael Battle who lifted up advocacy as the response to the disorder, the chaos, the dehumanization of the world. And it strikes me that your call to resistance is just the opposite side, right? We wanna sort of lift up certain values and lift up certain communities, and we also wanna agitate for resistance on the other side of all those things that are not in alignment with our values, all the things that dehumanize. And I wonder then what what does resistance look like? What can it look like? I mean, it can look like a million different things, but I wonder, you know, for you in your life or maybe in ways you’re trying to encourage your students, what are the kinds of ways that you encourage folks to resist?
J: You know, I like that idea of advocacy and resistance. And I would say, actually, there’s a bridge between the two, which is a word that I read about in this book, which is the word solidarity. And the way in which, the church is called to live in solidarity with one another and also with those who are suffering. And solidarity, as I use it in this book, simply means treating the needs and the concerns of somebody else as equivalent to your own. And so, you know, I’m pretty clear in this book that, you know, it’s not just the world that’s in crisis, but the church is going through some pretty big changes right now as well. And the church is being marginalized and pushed to the side when it’s not sort of being taken more firmly into the centers of power, parts of it. Right?
And –but as the church is pushed to the side, it’s perhaps more able to be in solidarity and more able to be in a position of advocacy, with those who are marginalized and suffering in society right now. As for what–so that’s part of what resistance looks like, is that living in solidarity with people who are different from you. I think resistance, I really need to stress this, is lived in community. So it’s in the way that the community structures its life that we will find resistance, because none of us by ourselves are strong enough to resist the powers of this world. And so, you know, what does that resistance look like?
I do think it’s about the decisions that we make as a community about how we choose to offer hospitality, how we choose to receive hospitality. I write about that–write about food, about our food practices as a major site of resistance to the powers of this world. You know, I grew up in the 1980s and 1990s, which means that I was kind of the target audience for Nancy Reagan and Barbara Bush, “Just say no to drugs.” But, you know, perhaps because of the generation I am, I sort of have that tattooed on, you know, the inside of my forehead. But I do think that part of the power of this world that we live in is this power of convenience that just makes things so easy for us that it makes resistance difficult. On some level, I think there are just some things we need to say no to, to say that there are higher goods here than convenient consumption. And I am more than a consumer, and this community is about more than consumption. And I’m going to make intentional decisions, about how I choose to spend my money and, how I choose to spend my time. Now that’s tough because, again, the system that we live in is pushing us, putting us all under so much pressure of time and resource and otherwise that the easy way out is so appealing for so many of us. But, you know, those are some of the questions that I begin to ask. And then ask, how are there other Christians who can help me and support me in this life, and I can do the same for them?
H: I think part of this too is this mentality of needing to work ourselves to the bone. And there’s kind of an element to our culture that I think comes from this larger economic picture you’re painting and polycrisis picture really that you’re painting, where to be busy is a badge of honor. And if you’re resting, actually, you’re slacking off. And there’s kind of all this restlessness and even guilt. But the way that shakes out is I think pretty much everyone I know had a frantic January. And I attended the FORMA conference … last week, I think. And they kept using the phrase work stoppage, which I really appreciated. And there was an emphasis on rest. People were talking about rest as resistance. And I really needed that reset. And a word that kept coming up for me was enough, which is a word that you use in this book. And I wonder I mean, a, is this kind of schema connected to the advocacy and resistance schema? Is there room for rest in the worlds of advocacy and resistance? And how does enough counter the more of our culture?
J: I think this is a central question and a central concern. And I think we should name and be clear that we live in this world driven by this ethos of more. And, ultimately, more is unsustainable. It’s unsustainable for God’s creation, which is finite, which has limits. We can only extract so many, “natural resources” from God’s creation before it becomes no longer compatible with human and other life as we’ve come to understand it. And it’s unsustainable, I think, as you’re saying for ourselves as well. Right? Like, we can’t keep up with the constant drive, for more. You know, you think about some of the slogans you see out there, like, YOLO, you only live once. Right? There’s very few people who say, like, “YOLO, you only live once. So I think this evening, I’m just gonna stay inside and read a book on the couch.” You know, nobody ever says that. YOLO is about is about more.
And so the word that I play within this book is the word content. Right, because, like, you know, the Internet, the attention economy depends on a never-ending stream of content. But content is this interesting word, because if you change pronunciation a little bit to content or contentment, it means something more like satisfaction, like enoughness. And I think that this is fundamental to the Christian gospel. Jesus actually warns against this, warns against this appetite for more. But more fundamentally than that, as Christians, we believe that God in Christ has done enough. And we, you and me and everybody else, we don’t need to do anything else to be made right in the world. And I don’t know how often we need to say that, but we’re clearly not saying it enough.
And the challenge, though, is that I think in our churches, especially as our churches are going through such a moment of change, that our churches are also pretty deep into this line of thinking around more. And that sometimes our churches aren’t places of enoughness and rest, but places of more, more, more. You know? There’s nothing worse than going to church on Sunday and being told, “Well, we need more volunteers for this, or we need this, or we like, we don’t have enough.” You know? Every time I go up to the communion rail on Sunday, I think of Jesus saying, “Come unto me all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”
And I think we need to be clear that churches are called to be places of consolation and of rest. And there are a lot of tired and weary people in the world who are looking for that rest. And and churches are called to be this place not of content, and content creation, but of contentment, of satisfaction, of enoughness.
But as you know, I think we’re seeing, and as you, you know, demonstrated in in the question you were asking and the way you phrased it, this is a real challenge for us because we’re so deep into this world. And it’s funny you said that, it seems like it in my experience, a couple years ago, people you’d ask somebody how they’re doing, and they’d say, “Oh, I’m so busy.” Now you ask people how they’re doing, and they say, “Oh, I’m so tired.” And I certainly feel that way. So that’s what needs to change, and that’s part of the resistant life that Christian communities are called to.
B: You know, this funny thing happened to me, just before I opened the book. And I think, again, it was part of this 15 theses organization that, before I opened the book to peek at what what your theses were, I thought, “Oh, well, I wonder what mine would be.” You know, and so, you know, I sat for a day or so and kinda thought about it. And you know, there were a couple overlapping ones, but mostly years were fresh–fresher and more interesting than the ones I was coming up with. But one of the ones that really surprised me was this, this idea of place, that you talk about in your vision, that place matters. And we’ve long said this here at Berkeley. It matters that folks come from, you know, all over the country and, you know, from diocese across the world, and they come to this particular place, and they pray every morning at St. Luke’s Chapel, right, in this very concrete way. And, I mean, one of the beauties of, you know, the last number of years, was that we’ve discovered that we can actually connect with people online and, you know, the pandemic opened Zoom to us, and we have friends all across the world, and that’s wonderful. And yet there’s … there will never be a replacement for the embodied experience of being with others in a place. And that surprised me, and it totally resonated as true. And so I wonder if you could just say a little more about how place, the sense of place and rootedness in space and time, figures into your vision for a renewed church.
J: I think my introduction to the importance of place in Christian ministry really came from the years I spent living and working in the Church of England where the vocation of parish ministry is so deeply Anglican. And a parish is not just the congregation, of course, but it’s an actual place. And that clergy, the parish priest is called to be in relationship with all people in that place, not just those who darken the door on Sunday morning. And that places are different. Right? One parish is going to be different from another, and they’re gonna be shaped by the people who live there, by their history, their social history, their natural history, the natural world that they’re in. And that we should uphold that, that on some major level, that the history of God’s people as told to us in the Bible is a story of people relating to God through particular places. It’s not just that story, but that’s a big part of that story. And I think we need to reclaim that vision, because places help us resist the homogenization that is so characteristic of the economic system that we live in that’s kind of pressing us towards homogenization. Places help us uphold the diversity that is so characteristic of God’s creation. My ministry in Montreal is gonna look different than yours in New Haven, and that’s okay.
And ultimately, you know, I’m very much oriented, as we’ve talked about, apocalyptically and eschatologically as well. So looking towards the future, the vision of the consummation of all things that the Bible gives us in the book of Revelation is a vision of a place, the New Jerusalem, the place that, you know, descends out of heaven. And if you read those chapters in Revelation, it’s a very specific place. Right? It’s a very concrete description of of what the new Jerusalem is like. It’s not just any old place. It’s this place. And that’s where we’re headed. And so I wanna uphold– I want us to uphold the particularities of our place, where we live.
I also, though, want us to be clear that our places are meant to be permeable. Right? So, you know, places can sort of come to function in an idolatrous fashion for some people that we don’t wanna let in newcomers. You know, “Who are these people, coming here?” And so there’s this vision, I think, of place-based ministry where we’re called to welcome newcomers and invite them into the stories of our places and be invited into other places as well.
And so, you know, this importance–there’s lots of people who are writing about the importance of place. You know, Willie Jennings at Yale is one of them. And so lots of people are thinking about place. And I think we should listen to all of that. I think we should also, especially in this regard, listen to indigenous peoples and especially indigenous peoples in North America. So here in the Anglican Church of Canada, we spend a lot of time thinking about what it means to create an indigenous self-governing church that’s in relationship with a settler church.
And I think one point of connection there is that, you know, the white European-descended Anglican Church of Canada brings with it a place-based emphasis. And indigenous people have long had a land-based ethos where land creates identity and faith for indigenous peoples. And, you know, the best way to learn about this is to spend time with indigenous people on the land. And one of the things I’ve done here in Quebec is take students, you know, on immersion trips to indigenous communities in Northern Quebec. And there’s this deep opportunity for, you know, European-descended, settler people like myself to learn from a land-based ethos and enrich my own place-based ministry. And in doing so, I think, find new ways of relating to the natural world at a time of climate crisis and really claiming our identity as receivers, of the gifts from God, through the land, through place, but also people who create and offer those gifts to other people.
H: Well, Jesse, one question we like to ask multiple guests and a question that’s kind of near and dear to Brandon in my heart, not because we’re experts at hope, but because we need it, is what is bringing you hope?
J: The first thing to say is that part of me wants to resist that question. There’s so much to be unhopeful about …
H: Do it. You wouldn’t be the first, to be honest.
J: And I think we I think we should be honest about that. And I think … I think it’s okay to name that, as as a first response. You know, I tell myself, and I mean it, and I think it’s true that for the rest of my life, the climate situation in the world is gonna continue to worsen. And it’s hard to feel hopeful about that.
However, I I’m also somebody who’s theologically inclined and engaged in Christian ministry, and I know that hope is central to the Christian tradition. And it’s in the title of this book, and I have a lot to say about hope. I think maybe the way I’d answer it in this conversation is I hope this is a safe place to point to the catechism of the Episcopal Church, at the back of your prayer books, which …
H: I should hope so.
J: It asks us the question, what is Christian hope? And the answer is, the Christian hope is to live with confidence in newness and fullness of life and to await the coming of Christ in glory and the completion of God’s purpose for the world. So hope is oriented towards the future. It is the central eschatological virtue. It’s the virtue that is keeping us aware that we are on a timeline of God’s action from creation through to the final consummation of all things. And so in my context, what brings me hope is the reality that there is a future, because there is so much about a world in polycrisis that pushes against the idea of a future. And there’s so much about our present economic system that encourages us to live fully in the moment with little consideration of the possibility of a future. And so simply to assert that there is a future as Christians do is a hopeful act, and it is a good and transformative future.
And our calling as Christians, as Christian communities, is to live now like that future will one day be. And we’ll do it imperfectly, because we’re a bunch of fallible and imperfect people. But our … the calling of our Christian communities is to give a foretaste of what that future is going to be like. And what I love about that definition from the catechism is the word confidence. To live with confidence in newness and fullness of life. And the word confidence literally means to live with faith. And this is not to say we shouldn’t be humble. We shouldn’t question ourselves, but we should also be confident as Christians that we have good news to share with other people. We think it’s transformative. We think the way of life that we’re trying to share and to embody is good news for people.
So let’s stand up to all, and take our place with confidence and assert that God has acted in the world and God is acting in the world, and God will continue to act. And I don’t know what that’s gonna look like for the church. I don’t know what it’s gonna look like for the world. But, ultimately, that’s where my hope comes from.
B: Well, Rev. Dr. Jesse Zink, thank you for being here on the Leaders Way podcast and giving us many reasons to be faithful, hopeful, and creative as a response to our world today. We’re so thankful for your time and for your scholarship and for your ministry.
J: Thank you.
H: Gosh. Thank you so much for that, Jesse. I wonder, as a spiritual leader yourself, if you could help us close out this episode with a prayer or blessing or something of that nature.
J: Sure. This is a prayer that comes from the Book of Alternative Services, which is the worship resource of the Anglican Church of Canada. And I think it does not appear in the 1979 Book of Common Prayer, although I’m happy to be connected, corrected about that. So let us pray.
Oh, God. It is your will to hold both heaven and earth in a single piece. Let the design of your great love shine on the waste of our wraths and sorrows and give peace to your church, peace among nations, peace in our homes, and peace in our hearts through your son, Jesus Christ, our Lord. Amen.
H: Amen. Thanks for listening to the Leaders Way podcast. You can learn more about this episode at berkeleydivinity.yale.edu/podcast. Follow along with us on Instagram at theleadersway.podcast.
B: And you can rate and review us on your podcast app and be sure to hit follow so you never miss an episode. And if you like this episode, please share it with a friend.
H: Until next time.
B: Peace be with you.