45: Servant Leadership with Mary Glasspool

Hosts: Brandon Nappi and Hannah Black

Guest: Mary Glasspool

Production: Goodchild Media

Music: Wayfaring Stranger, Theodicy Jazz Collective

Art: Ella Landino

Instagram: @theleadersway.podcast

berkeleydivinity.yale.edu/podcast(Link is external)

You can support our work at https://tinyurl.com/support-transforming-leaders

B:            Hey, Hannah. 

H:           Howdy do, Brandon. 

B:            There’s a turn of phrase that I haven’t heard in a long time. Howdy do. I think we need to bring that back more often.

H:           I agree. Maybe the truncated howdy. 

B:            Yeah. You know, I think it it’s gonna take a lot of practice for this Yankee Northerner to get howdy out of my out of my mouth, but I’m gonna try it. 

H:           Okay.

B:            I like it. 

H:           Back when I worked at Disneyland, some of us would greet each other with “Yoo hoo!” because I think Mickey and Minnie say that to each other. We had to we had to, get in character. 

B:            Right. Right. 

H:           Speaking of, playing characters, this jogs my memory. Oh. I feel like …

B:            Feel like coming. 

H:           Yeah. We told the listeners all well, you told your listeners all about how you were selected …  cast, if I may … as Santa for your large Italian family Christmas. And we never heard how that went. Would you enlighten us about that?

B:            We never talked about that. I was … I was half hoping we’d kinda get to Lent, and then it was it would be so inappropriate to talk about my Santa … diary … 

H:           Brandon. Saint Nicholas is always relevant. 

B:            He’s a timeless bishop, theologian, and mystical creature. Okay. 

H:           Well, I hope I hope I, one day, get described as a mystical creature.

B:            Add that to the resume. Mhmm. Aspiring mystical creature. 

H:           Hannah Black mystical creature.  Sometimes theologian. 

B:            It was a mixed review. I’m …  I’m gonna be honest. You know, I mean, I love being with my family. They’re amazing. It is kind of beautifully chaotic, big Italian family, 7 fishes on Christmas Eve. There’s been, I mean, a …  50-, probably a 60-year tradition of someone in the family, dressing up as Santa and bringing all the children gifts on Christmas Eve. I remember when I was a little kid, you know, someone did this. And so I wanted to preserve the tradition. I wanted to be a good sport. I hadn’t been to this gathering in so long. I felt like I couldn’t say no. I wanted to be a good teammate. And thankfully, I had an elf, my cousin, Stephanie, shout out This is really involved. 

H:           Who carries the institutional knowledge.

B:            Right? Like, how do you disappear? Like, what route to take out the back door and around so no one sees you? Where do you get dressed? 2 costumes to choose from, both of which didn’t fit. Oh, yeah. So, you know, there is a method. And, you know, let’s talk about the bright side. Like, seeing the kids be so excited, the wonder, you know, you come in with dozens of presents. You know, you’re a pretty likable person.

               However, there were 2 children crying. Right? 2 little ones, and that was really, really sad. And …

H:           Did you make them cry?

B:            I made them cry! Yeah. I know. So that was really sad. And then, like, mid-performance, like, handing out presents, my dear cousin, an elf, was giving me production notes. 

H:           Wow.

B:            Just like “The children need more. Come on, Santa!” And then as I’m trying to like dig deep and deliver for the kids, Right? I had a wardrobe malfunction, and my, my coat popped open. Like, it happened. And the … and the pillow, which was making my belly jolly and large, exploded. And so we had to, like, stuff. It was, it was clumsy. It was awkward. And afterward, I was given a solid B- from one of my elder cousins.

H:           Is it possible to get fired or maybe not invited back? 

B:            So it’s 100% possible. However, no one else is willing to do this job. And so no matter even if I intentionally …

H:           Are you willing to do this job? 

B:            And even if I intentionally flunked being Santa, I think they would they would not only invite me back, but but demand that I that I reprove the performance in order to be fed.

H:           Did anybody tell you, “You smell like beef and cheese? You sit on a throne of lies?” My daughter was there delivering me all of the Elf lines. So, you know, a mixed bag. I mean, at the end of the day, children got toys, and they were happy. So, I mean yeah. But not my favorite thing. I’m gonna be honest. I was not a natural Santa. 

H:           Is Santa called something special in Italian? Is that part of this? 

B:            Oh, you know, in Italy and … maybe some of our listeners will correct me. But I think there’s a Bufana. So there’s, like…  a Christmas witch who visits. I don’t think Saint Nicholas is much of a thing. Except to the extent that Americans have sort of imported the Santa image. Yeah. 

H:           Very cool. Speaking of legendary presences, I’m very excited that Bishop Mary Glaspool is joining us today because I had such a wonderful time with her as our chaplain last summer at the Leaders Way weekend residence for our Leaders Way fellows. Oh my goodness. 

B:            Oh my goodness. Yeah. Just in case some of our listeners aren’t tracking this, Leaders Way is a hybrid learning kind of immersion program that focuses on clergy and ministry innovation. And so we invite folks to Yale right onto campus. We stay together in the newest, coolest dorm on campus. And, gosh, we visit the Beinecke Rare Book Library, and we pray together, and we laugh together, and we share our lives, and we work with various …

H:           Listen to fire sermons from people like Bishop Mary. 

B:            Holy cow. And Bishop Mary is a …

H:           Cry, laugh, bond. This year, eat tacos. 

B:            Oh, that is a bit of a spoiler alert.

H:           Honestly, the food is important. 

B:            Food is so important. There is … we’ll say more about this later, but there will be a taco and margarita truck. 

H:           In the spirit of innovation, we continue to innovate upon ourselves and our program. 

B:            I think we need more ministry trucks in the world. Right? Like, what if there was a Leaders Way truck and we went out on the road?

H:           Wow. 

B:            Anyway, Bishop Mary came to us and helped to create such a sacred, connected, wise community. And, gosh. I hope some folks will join us next summer, for Leaders Way. But seeing Bishop Mary again was a great reminder of just how powerful it was. And so many new ideas, and innovative ministry projects are sort of streaming forth from this cohort, so I’m really proud of them. 

               But, what’s beautiful about Bishop Mary is she’s wise, she’s humble, she can laugh at herself, she’s been at this a long time, so she’s got a lot of perspective on the church. And, well, let me tell you a little bit about Bishop Mary. 

               So, she’s been, in the Diocese of New York as the Assistant Bishop since 2016. Before that she was the suffragan bishop in LA. since 2010. She’s born in Staten Island, raised in Goshen, New York, went to seminary at Episcopal Divinity School in Cambridge, and has been a priest since 1982. So not the very first class of women who were ordained, but not too long after.

H:           So it’s on its heels.  Mhmm. 

B:            Yeah. And she’s served in parishes in Boston and Philly and Maryland. She’s been Canon to the Ordinary. And she speaks, you know, as someone who’s seen a lot but has managed not to not to become jaded and has a real sense of rootedness and equanimity even amid all that that she’s seen. I’m so … I’m so thankful for this conversation. 

H:           Enjoy this spirit filled powerhouse of a person who’s about to become your friend.

B:            Hi. I’m Brandon Nappi. 

B:            Hi. I’m Hannah Black, and we’re your hosts on the Leaders Way podcast. A Yale podcast empowering leaders, cultivating spirituality, and exploring theology.

H:           This podcast is brought to you by Berkeley Divinity School, The Episcopal Seminary at Yale. 

B:            Well, Bishop Mary Glasspool, we’re so thankful to be reunited again online after a wonderful week together at Leaders Way this summer. Welcome to the Leaders Way podcast. 

Bishop Mary:         Oh, thank you, Brandon. And thank you, Hannah. And I still … I still remember, quite a few episodes from that week. It was, it was wonderful, and you both are to be complimented and supported in that endeavor. 

B:            Well, it was rich learning, rich fellowship, wonderful food, I think. It’s been described as summer camp for clergy, and, I think that made you the head camp counselor. 

M:           Lifeguard at the swimming pool. 

H:           Yes. Yes. Yes. 

B:            It’s a great opportunity to reflect a little bit with you, Bishop Mary, about, you know, leadership and the church and what the church needs and what our aching world needs. But I wonder before we get sort of too intense and heavy into all the demands of the world and all the ways in which the world needs healing, I wonder if you could take us back to … kinda to your early days of call, and and just tell us the story of your vocation. 

M:           Yeah. Absolutely. 

B:            I think some people think priests are are hatched or brought by a stork or something. You know, how does it how did it work for you?

M:           The angel of death came in and dropped me onto the planet. No. Well, I you know, I’m one of those endangered species of a cradle Episcopalian. And, my father was an Episcopal priest who, incidentally did not believe in women’s ordination. So I grew up in the Episcopal church, and in in that sense, I feel like it was sort of a given. It wasn’t that I had to find my way. The way was given to me, and that … and I consider that a great gift. 

               So I grew up in the church and, even though my father was pretty conservative theologically and was against women’s ordination. When I was in college, Dickinson College, Yay, Red Devils.

B:             Shout out to my daughter, Ellie, who’s a freshman at Dickinson. 

M:           Yes. I love it. I love it. You know, I sort of always … Well, no, I didn’t always want to be a priest because that wasn’t a possibility when I was growing up. And so I couldn’t imagine it. And there were no girl acolytes. Well, I sang in the choir, and we all wore those caps, those beanies. You know, women had to wear hats in church. And, so when I got to college, I think it was my sophomore year in college, Dickinson has Methodist church roots, but there was a full time Episcopal chaplain at the time that I was going to school, and he hired an assistant chaplain for the college who was a woman and a recent graduate of Princeton Theological Seminary and this was in 1973/74.

               And boy, was that a point of transformation, seeing an incarnate person who lived into a role that I hadn’t dreamed of. And although it was, you know, the Presbyterian church and I … there was a part of me that was wrestling with disqualifying that because it wasn’t sacramental and it wasn’t the Episcopal church. But her name, interestingly, was Barbara Chaapel, c- h-a-a-p -e-l. But, she modeled for … you know, it was just this…  words won’t do it.

               So the … and that was in 1973/74. So in 1974, July 29th, the first women were ordained in the Episcopal church. That was a family crisis because my father then thought the Episcopal Church was being flushed down the toilet. But once again, coupled with seeing an embodied person fill out the role of chaplain, I was in college when I began to discern my vocation. And in a very pragmatic way, I kind of self-assessed and said, well, I love– I was a resident adviser, so I loved sort of counseling and people. I loved the church, and I sang in the chapel choir and so the liturgical part of things was very alive in me. And I, you know, I was probably one of the only people in the diocese of New York who went to the bishop first, before I went to my rector who was my father, and the bishop, the late great Harold Wright in the diocese of New York, one of the suffragans at the time. I said, “Bishop Wright, I think I’m discerning a call to priesthood.” And he…  the first thing he said was, “What are we gonna do about your father?”

H:           Oh, well, he was right into the situation. 

M:           Yeah. Yeah. I said, “Well, I thought that was your, you know … “

H:           “Why do you think I’m talking to you?”

M:           Right. Right. So, you know, the rest, as they conveniently say, is history. I have felt called by God every step of the way, even at my darkest moments when the tide is low, I have to trust that the that the tide’ll come in again. 

H:           Mhmm. Oh, this is all reminding me of, how I got to be there at the National Cathedral when you were preaching in celebration of the Philadelphia 11. It was really special. And when you said you were a rare breed or whatever you said, I was thinking … endangered species. Yeah. I was thinking about how there’s this whole generation of women who we’ve had the pleasure of speaking with, you know, a few of you on this podcast who experienced their sense of call at a time when it just wasn’t a thing. There’s, like, extra layers of confusion. I’m thinking back to our conversation, Brandon, with Bishop Vinny. But I could really relate to what you’re talking about because even though, you know, I grew up more recently, I grew up in a time in a place rather than a time where there weren’t women in leadership positions. And I had a very similar moment when I studied abroad in Oxford and went into the Anglo-Catholic parish in the middle of town. And there was a woman there doing the priest stuff. And I just like, my brain broke, you know, I sort of knew … I had heard that this happened. But I had never seen it with my own two eyes. It’s just, there’s something different about that. That’s powerful.

B:            Mhmm. I’m wondering, Bishop Mary, was there a certain moment where, you know, maybe you had an internship or CPE, where you realize, “Oh, yeah. I’m good at this. Or maybe if not good at this, I’m getting so much life from doing this ministry.” I think, I’m thinking of our of our seminarians right now who are sometimes struggling with discernment. “Is this really the path that I’m called to?” And they’re longing for some green flags. And I’m wondering in your own early days of ministry, you know, what were the green flags that confirmed the call in you? 

M:           Yeah. Well, in college, before I got to seminary, I was a part of, and I don’t know, Brandon, if they have this at Dickinson anymore, but we had college church, which was a kind of multidenominational, inclusive thing that we had in the Anita Tuvin Schlechter Auditorium. And I got to preach there. I was asked to preach as a student. And, I think I preached two or three times and, my, you know, my very fledgling sermons were very well received. And I felt it not just received, but I think engaged. That … I felt like I was part of a larger conversation that wasn’t even initiated by me. It felt like it was initiated by God, and yet I was an instrument in in the conversation.

               And so that was a green flag. I think my own you know, each process as differently as it’s practiced among different dioceses in the Episcopal church, has its own set of usually perceived as pretty rigid green flags of testing, you know? Discerning, getting verbal feedback or getting written feedback, much as you would, you know, grades in school or feedback on a paper. So there are lots of green flags built into the process, but I think people maybe don’t get so much joy out of that as relief that they’ve, you know, that they’ve gotten through that part. 

               So I think the informal green flags, which are people not so much casually, but maybe incidentally saying they don’t say it this boldly, but “I think you’d make a good priest.” Or, “Gosh, you really helped me get through that crisis in my life.” Or, “You know, I really appreciate talking with you. I feel like I can say anything.” Those are moments that I think provide some pretty immediate feedback in the form of green flags. 

H:           Yeah. We had a recent episode with Dean Peterson where she was talking a little bit about how sometimes women experience their call differently because they don’t necessarily have quite as often this internal narrative of themselves as a leader. And a lot of the time, it’s other people noticing things in them like what you were just describing. And … kind of on the heels of that, I’m wondering if there’s anyone whose leadership influenced you or even how you came to view yourself as a leader. Was that natural for you? 

M:           As a child, I was one of those bossy people. I was a smart aleck, bossy little girl. And I, you know, I think my neighborhood friends just short of did me in for that. I would, you know, I would orchestrate everything. I would, you know, if we needed to play a game, I’d get everybody together and tell everybody what … you’re …  that was my, you know, that was my original thing of leadership. 

H:           I love that.

B:            I have this vision of the Staten Island playgrounds being managed very efficiently. 

M:           Well, I actually grew up in Goshen, New York after being born in Staten Island. But, but, you know, I don’t know how I got … I got feedback in school. I had a 3rd grade teacher whom I loved. And it shows, I think, that deep change comes out of the motivation of love. You know, I was always the …  sort of the first one to have the right answer and that kind of thing, and she, you know, took me aside and said, essentially, you need to let other people have their turn. And it’s important that other people have the opportunities that you have. And, you know, she could have just said to me, “Shut up.”

H:           “This is a lot.”

M:            So that was impactful. And then perhaps in a more constructive way, I began to see that what she said was really important. I did Hurricane Island Outward Bound when I was 19 or 20, scared to death. It was a grueling experience for me, probably more so psychologically than physically. But, one of the things that I came away with was I was on a co-ed watch. Most of the teams were either all men or all women, but I was one of the 2 co-ed watches. And when we got to the end of the program, we had to, everybody had to do an obstacle course kind of thing. And the two coed teams came out 1st and 2nd in the obstacle course. They beat all the men’s teams And the women’s teams. So the expectation was, of course, the men would do it. Yeah. 

               What I learned out of that was, you know, male and female, God created they/them. That if that a community that is diverse and yet balanced can really move forward better than, you know, groups that are segregated by, certainly, by gender, but by other categories as well. So, that was a life lesson that was pretty important in terms of leadership.

               And I’ve got many models of … you know, I, going back to, Hannah to your question, there’s so many. It’s hard to narrow it down. We had to rotate leadership. And, I was probably not a very good leader on Outward Bound because I was having such difficulty with other aspects of the program. Stan was someone who wouldn’t ask you to do anything that he wasn’t willing to do himself. So he didn’t … you know, there’s such a difference between delegating and dumping. And a lot of really bad leaders just dump things that they don’t want to do onto other people, but Stan didn’t do that. And, the second thing that he taught me is if you were having difficulty doing one of the jobs, he would help. He would come and help you. At the same time that he was a leader, he was inspiring us and holding us all up as a group. And, that was good. 

               I also, one of my lifetime heroes is the late, great Harvey Guthrie, who was the former dean of Episcopal Divinity School. And I think of the many stories I could tell you about Harvey, I think he put his job and, I think, pretty much his life on the line for women’s ordination. I mean, he delivered an ultimatum to the trustees and said, when they were hiring Carter Hayward and Suzanne Hyatt and Allison Cheek, he said to the trustees, “We either hire them or I quit.”

H:            Ooh. Wow. 

M:           I’ll put in my letter of resignation. I mean, he put his whole being …  He is someone who believed– you know, if you have any difficulty believing stuff, just think about a person who is willing to put their life on the line for something. 

H:           Gosh. I think there’s a version of leadership where you sort of envision yourself ambitiously rising through the ranks and being who people want you to be. And that’s so different from having these strong convictions and putting it all out on the line for justice or truth or whatever the issue at hand is.

M:           Yep. You know, it’s interesting. I’ve been thinking about this, this morning, but I, a while ago, I read this. It’s a book on leadership, leadership development at West Point, you know, military stuff. And, two things about it. The whole thing at West Point is, they …  it’s a four- year staged program where, you know, when you’re a plebe, you wipe everything out and you learn how to be a follower. You learn how to be a follower first. And then by stages, you know, the second year, you know, you have a special relationship with the plebes in terms of teaching them one on one. And the 3rd year, you take leadership positions with larger groups, and the 4th year even more so. So they have that kind of thing worked out. But when I was reviewing the book this morning, the one thing that was a common thread through leadership was character. And people like Douglas MacArthur, of course, expounding on duty, honor, country, would talk about character and integrity. Your word has to be your word. People depend on that, and you need– you need to depend on it. And that’s why it’s not, it’s not duty, honor, country just for the sake of an honor code or anything like that. It’s …  it’s the principle and the foundation of good leadership, and they start with character. It’s pretty amazing given our society today. 

H:           Do you think that’s something that Episcopal church leaders need to learn from or something that they do? Or … translate that into Episcopal for me. 

M:           You know, I don’t wanna be snide about it. One would hope that it doesn’t need much translation. I believe that we learn to be a follower first. We follow Jesus Christ. And if Jesus Christ isn’t at the center of our lives, then, you know, it’s perilous to try to start leading. You know? Start by learning how to be a good follower of Jesus. And then I think the church is based around servant leadership. You know, Jesus saying, “I came not to be served, but to serve and to give my life.” You know, I do think good leadership in the church gives of our lives, and it’s costly. It’s not … it’s not cheap. 

               You know, I appreciated Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s talking about cheap grace. It’s not. It’s paid for. There’s a cost. And, no matter how many mission statements you write or goals you set up or things that you’ve achieved. It’s about … it’s about love and service. And there’s a way in which I think love is service and service is love. 

B:            I mean, I think for any of us as leaders, one of the most challenging dimensions that we all have to reckon with is change. And I think this is probably true of any leader and true of all of us, but I think in particular of your ministry and your vocation, you were … you were born into a different church than you were ordained a priest into. That church was different by the time you were ordained a bishop. And I wonder if you could reflect a little bit on some of the challenges that you’ve needed to face over your vocation and maybe some, maybe some lessons that you’ve learned as those inevitable challenges have have arisen. 

M:           That’s a big one, Brandon. And you’re absolutely right. The church is changing and there’s a way in which …  I’ll kind of start current day and try to work back a little bit. But there’s a way in which the church is dying. And, you know, it’s a little bit glib to say the Episcopal Church knows how to do funerals. We know how to do a funeral for Jimmy Carter, and people, marvel at how well that’s done, all the pomp and circumstance, but also the liturgy that does provide comfort and structure when things are feeling chaotic or people are grieving or whatever.  But I think that the institutional aspects of the church are dying, and and we need not to be afraid of that.

               Because there’s no resurrection without death. You know, we’re a people of death and resurrection, and yet we seem to be afraid to let go of some of the things we seek, we hold dear. And many of them are not as valuable as we think they are. And I go, you know, I go back to tradition and the word traditio in Latin, which means to hand over. I think if we have our core values right, that tradition will pass on to the next generation. I mean, Christianity has lasted for 2,000 years now, 2,000 plus. We’ll see. But, and my own attitude is, you know, God is bigger than the church. And if somehow, the church or the Episcopal church in particular is not living up to engaging God’s mission and trying to work with God to fulfill God’s own dream for the consummation of all creation, then we should die. Because we’re not doing what we were created to be doing. And I don’t mean that as, you know, dismissively. I’m very serious about that. 

               And so … I love the Episcopal Church. It’s been, I … you know, people ask me about it and I, again, rather jokingly talk about it as the family business. I mean, my great-great-grandfather was the 10th presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church in the days when the presiding bishop was the oldest bishop. You know, the longest standing. It was Alfred Lee, who was the first bishop of Delaware, was my great-great-grandfather. The terms were very short. I think he was presiding bishop for, like, 15 months. But anyway, I talk about it as the family business, but I … you know, that means that I need to be clear apart from the institution, apart from the position and privilege accorded me as a bishop in the institution, that I need to understand myself on a very basic level as the beloved child of God whom I preach to everybody else, “You are a beloved child of God.” I need to know that apart from the fact that I’m constantly falling into the Protestant work ethic. I have to somehow earn my salvation or do good in order to be something. I don’t know. And I and I think I’m on that, but that’s one of my growing edges. 

H:           It reminds me of what you were saying about leadership being in the first place, following Jesus. Because I think as leaders, it can be tempting actually to follow the wrong thing, whether it be a specific denomination or specific tasks or specific ministries. All of that becomes noise if it’s not actually simply following Jesus. It’s possible for everything to get convoluted and …

M:           Absolutely. And, you know, servant leadership, I think, I think … Jesus is the premier model of servant leadership. He was a servant and a leader and he led through that kind of internal authority. He didn’t have, you know …  he was an itinerant rabbi, but he didn’t write a book or have a PhD or, you know, I’m … I’m not sure they used the title rabbi. He was just an itinerant, you know, preacher. 

               I think Jesus also shows us what I would consider the sort of second characteristic of servant leadership. The first being that you’re that you learn how to follow before you lead. But it seems to me another one is finding that balance between taking care of oneself and serving the larger community. Jesus modeled for us times when He went off and prayed by Himself. He wasn’t using that time to heal all the sick people that showed up at the door, you know.

H:           Or write a sermon or …  His finances. 

M:           You know? So there’s a balance.  And then I also think servant leaders and any kind of leader, and I wanna say this with as much quiet emphasis as I possibly can. I think leaders are builders of society, affirmative builders of society, not just “Tear it down.” My paternal grandmother used to say, “Don’t criticize. Try something harder.” Very easy to tear something down. Very easy to criticize. And that can come out of our own lack of self-worth or whatever. But it’s harder to be part of the creative process and to really work with others to build something that benefits more than just you.

H:           That is so true. 

B:            You know, in our work, we have the blessing of being in conversation with many bishops, and I always learn something. And one of the questions that whenever I can, I always like to ask, is what’s the most fulfilling part of this kind of ministry, and what’s the hardest part of it? 

M:           All right. I’m going to do the hardest part first. It’s really difficult to deal with conflict in the church. You know, I think we need to train people in conflict resolution. I’ve found in part, because I think people know I’m not afraid of conflict that, you know, I’ve been part of task forces that have gone into a parish in crisis because there’s conflict and tried to resolve things before it gets to the 9th hour. But, you know, 11th hour, whatever the metaphor–you can work out that metaphor. But, you know, when I was Canon to the Ordinary in the diocese of Maryland, when … whenever I got a call that began, you know, usually a warden, What did the canon say about the role of, you know, rector, warden, or treasurer? And I, and I would be on the phone going, “Oh, this fight is over and nobody won.: By the time we get to the rules and the law and the canons that, you know, they should be the last thing we turn to, not the first thing. So the first thing, read Matthew chapter 18. Right? You know, if you have a difference with your brother or sister, you go to that person. You know, people aren’t willing to do that basic thing. And that’s what we need to really teach is, conflict can be healthy and good. When I did premarital counseling a lot more frequently than I do now, I used to teach couples how to fight.

“Oh, we don’t ever we don’t ever argue.” Oh, come on. I’m gonna teach you how to how to fight, have a good argument, and and leave the room with everybody intact. You know?

B:            We need a whole podcast. You’ll have to come back, Bishop Mary, and teach us how to fight. I like to do too. Reconcile.

M:           Well, I mean, you know, I … yeah. I mean, and I have thousands of stories that I could tell you. But you know, people are, you know as well as I do, you can walk into a church for the first time and you can tell without anybody saying a word, whether there’s a sort of peaceful atmosphere or whether there’s a fight going on. I can anyway, and I’m not … well, I am a little bit sensitive, but, you know, people know.

B:            They know, they can tell. 

M:           You can feel it. Nobody wants to go to a church that’s embroiled in conflict. Man. What gives me joy? You know, Sunday visitations are my bread and butter. They are the foundation. And I love … it took me a while to get used to it, because the real change from being a parish priest to being a bishop is when you’re a parish priest, you have one community and you work through the liturgical year, you know, Advent, Christmas, Epiphany, Lent, Pentecost, what am I missing? Easter. God. Missing the main thing. Easter. Pentecost. You know, you go through that that life cycle with the parish any number of times and there’s deep richness there and I miss it to this day. Once you are elected bishop, all of a sudden, the yearly cycle revolves around diocesan convention and, you know, the clergy retreat and things more administrative than liturgical.

And your parish might be a staff because you’re going, you know you’re going out to different– in the Diocese of New York, you know, a different congregation every week, any one of a 185 congregations that are very different. They’re different liturgically. They have different characteristics, etcetera, etcetera. And I find great joy in that privilege. And it is a privilege. 

               I mean, you know, I sort of test my own mood every day when I get up and I say, do I say, you know, “Oh, I have to do this today,” or do I say, “I get to do this today?” I have the privilege of visiting these people and celebrating this Eucharist. I’ve always felt that privilege in visiting in the hospital, too. You know, walking into in any crisis, walking into a crisis situation and having people turn to you. Not that it’s you. It’s … what you represent. And there’s something gratifying in knowing that people with their backs up against the wall are gonna turn to prayer, are gonna turn to God. And that’s okay. You know? Mhmm. And maybe the laborers that were hired at the 11th hour or whatever, but it’s okay. God is there and God is trustworthy. And, it’s a huge privilege, and I … so that’s what I enjoy most.

H:           If you’re enjoying the Leaders Way podcast, you might like to join us in person as a Leaders Way Fellow. The Leaders Way at Yale certificate program combines the best of seminary, retreat, and pilgrimage. Fellows meet in person at Yale for a week in June, then continue their learning in mentor groups online. To learn more, visit our website. 

B:            You might also like to join us for one of our upcoming online courses or workshops.

Our learning space is hopeful, courageous, and imaginative. This year’s offerings include courses and workshops on prayer, preaching, conflict management, and more. Clergy and lay leaders from every country, denomination, and seminary background are warmly welcome to join us for all of our programs. 

M:           Let me quickly answer some of the quick questions. What wisdom or advice would you share with your seminarian self? Just soak it up. Take advantage of the classes because you won’t–you know, if you do the ordination track thing, you won’t get it. You won’t ever have an opportunity again like in –I went to Episcopal Divinity School when it was a residential seminary. And just soak up all that academic stuff that you think, “Oh, this doesn’t apply to parish ministry.” Well, you. It will. Store it away. 

H:           I’m just gonna take that clip and show it to my students on the 1st day of class in a few days.

M:           Because, you know, you know, it’s not all about the GOEs, but, boy, I still call on things that I learned in seminary. And I’ve been ordained for 40 something years. So that’s that.

Can you share how you handle disappointments in ministry? I just put down, you know, when there’s a disappointment, take some time. Take whatever time you need to process. I think particularly, and–but this is me speaking, the emotional content of that disappointment. Take time, process, pray, trust God that there’s something else, and then let it go. Don’t keep harping on that disappointment. Don’t keep going back and saying, you know, “In aught-four, I was turned down for a job and, you know, I’m still carrying around that baggage”– Don’t do that. If you were–I’ve been,  I’ve lost plenty of, far more jobs than I’ve gained. But you can’t build your life on that. You can’t live into the full person that God wants you to be if you if you hang on to those disappointments.

               I also wanna say what gives me hope: stories. Listen to people’s stories. There was a wonderful story on NPR the other day, and this … we’ll mention this now. Right? The California wildfires. Yes. It’s just …  it’s just weighed heavy on my heart. There was a story on NPR about undocumented migrants going out to help people. They went out, they picked up hoses or took food or did, you know, did whatever they needed to do to help. You don’t have to be, you don’t have to be documented to help, and you don’t have to be anything to help. You just need to be human to help. And, it, that story, brought me to tears. And I was also taken, and I just got this this morning. David Madison, who is the executive director of the National Association of Episcopal Schools, Saint Mark’s School in Altadena was one that I visited regularly. I was … I worked closely with the commissioner on schools, and Saint Matthew’s Pacific Palisades as well. And, you know, Bruce Freeman and Stephen Smith, two of the clergy on the staff at Saint Matthew’s– their houses were completely destroyed. But David Madison put out a thing asking for volunteer chaplains. And I thought, boy, now there’s something. If I were retired, I would get on the next plane and go out there and offer chaplaincy to the students, to the young people who are without a school, without a school home.

               But David Madison also does a weekly meditation on Mondays, and he quoted that wonderful passage from Isaiah that we had this past Sunday, you know, Isaiah chapter 43 verses 1 through 3, where the prophet says, “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you. I have called you by name. You are mine. When you pass through the waters, I will be with you, and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you. When you walk through fire, you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you. For I am the Lord your God, the holy one of Israel, your Savior.” And, you know, if somebody didn’t preach a sermon on that yesterday, they should’ve. You know? But you know, David brought that up and said, you know, that the fire will not consume us. God is with us. He, you know, had a little three point homily in his thing, and he just said this passage speaks of God’s intimate and constant presence with us, the fact that God is there and God’s presence known maybe more especially in crises, and this isn’t the end, you know? We’re gonna get through this and we’re gonna get through it together. And I thought that was outstanding leadership. And part of being a good leader is pointing to the leadership in others and really supporting. Part of being a good leader is trying to support and empower people to be their best selves.

               And if, you know, if you’re operating out of insecurity and you need to be in competition with somebody in order to be seen as a leader, then go back to square one and start again because that’s not how it works– or it’s not how it works best. But, you know, power is one of those things, I think, like love, is–if you can give it away, it spreads in a healthy way. 

H:           Oh, beautifully said. 

B:            Bishop Mary, we’re so thankful for your leadership, and the wisdom and the insights that you bring to us and to so many. So thankful for your time in these early days of the new year. I wonder if you would close us out with a blessing, a blessing not just of Hannah and I, but of our listeners. 

M:           Wow. I have a couple of favorite blessings. And one, having just commented on pointing to the leadership of others is from the late William Sloane Coffin, who prayed, may God grant you the grace never to sell yourself short. Grace to risk something big for something good. Grace to remember that the world is now too dangerous for anything but truth and too small for anything but love, And the blessing of the God who creates us, redeems us, and sustains us, be upon us, and remain with us this day and forevermore. Amen. 

H:           Gosh, Bishop Mary. You’re gonna make me cry. I just have to say before you leave that you, for me, are one of these people incarnate who I can look to and say, Oh, gosh. Look what’s possible. Look what’s possible for human beings in the kingdom of heaven. So thank you for your help. 

M:           Thank you, Hannah. I will I will remember that. I too am on the verge of tears, just zooming this with the 2 of you whom I love.  And it’s hard for me to take that in sometimes. And I will take it in and I will remember you both and this time together. It’s been very special. 

H:           Well, stay tuned listeners for part 2, how to fight with Bishop Mary. 

M:           I have a punching nun puppet that punches.

H:           Okay. It really has to happen now. 

               Thanks for listening to the Leaders Way podcast. You can learn more about this episode at berkleydivinity.yale.edu/podcast. Follow along with us on Instagram at the leadersway.podcast.

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H:           Until next time. 

B:            Peace be with you.