Dean Yejide Peters Pietersen joins us to discuss what it’s like to apply to and be a student at Berkeley Divinity School, the Episcopal seminary at Yale. This is the perfect episode for people thinking about exploring their call or applying to seminary—or for people who know those people! Dean Pietersen reflects on vocational discernment and how theological education is for everyone. She shares how Berkeley at Yale strives to be a welcoming and inclusive environment (starting with its full-tuition scholarships!). We talk about Berkeley’s community life focus and the integration of intellectual, spiritual, and practical aspects of ministry that Berkeley students experience during their time here.
44: Seminary with Yejide Peters Pietersen
Hosts: Brandon Nappi and Hannah Black
Guest: Yejide Peters Pietersen
Production: Goodchild Media
Music: Wayfaring Stranger, Theodicy Jazz Collective
Art: Ella Landino
Instagram: @theleadersway.podcast
berkeleydivinity.yale.edu/podcast
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- Email Dean Pietersen
- Learn about applying to Berkeley Divinity School at Yale
Hannah: Welcome
Brandon: Welcome.
H: Dean Yejide Peters Pieterson, Dean P. To the Leaders Way podcast.
B: So good to have you here.
H: So fabulous. We thought since some of our listeners are considering seminary, thinking about maybe applying to Berkeley at Yale one day or have applied … this kind of thing, maybe you know somebody who you should send this episode to, hint hint wink wink. We wanna talk about seminary today. But before we really dive in, one student responded to our question on our Instagram story on theleadersway.podcast, where I said, “What do you wish you knew about seminary, or what do you wanna know about seminary?” This current student said, “What is there to do in Connecticut?” So shout out to Sam. Thank you so much.For this fabulous question.
So I thought we should get started by talking about the glories of Connecticut.
B: So many.
H: A state we know and love.
B: So many glories.
Y: So many glories.
B: There’s so much to do. But I wanna hear from you both, as the non-Connecticut natives. Like, what do you …
H: I totally have an answer.
Y: I have, like, ten answers because … Having gone–been a student here, and now I’m, like, an old here. I have, like, two sets of answers. Right? The old answers, like, you know, for me as, like, now that I’m, like, you know, retired student me, and then, like …
H: Retired student? Otherwise known as a professional.
B: Let’s start there, or, like, the student Yejide.
Y: Okay. So I think the thing I loved the most about being here in New Haven is that New Haven itself is an amazing town. Yeah. And it’s also really close to really other great places. Like New York, like Hartford, like Boston, and so you’ve got this perfect mix of, like, keeping it local, and also, like, if you wanna do something that’s kind of extravagant.
H: Yeah. Go see a Broadway show.
Y: I’m gonna –yeah like on a student budget that is extravagant! But I feel like, first of all, we kind of –we have to talk about the pizza. Oh. Like, we can’t miss the pizza.
Can we miss the pizza, Brandon?
B: Have we talked about the pizza?
H: We can’t miss the pizza.
B: I mean, we might have referenced the pizza.
H: There’s also part of our set, for those of you watching on YouTube, is the pizza.
Y: The pizza is like the business. And I’m from New York. And here’s the part where I tell you from New York and that New Yorkers are very particular about their pizza. But New Haven pizza, something else. It’s really good.
H: Well, we’ve talked about our favorite pizza places, but what’s your favorite New Haven pizza?
Y: Oh, wow. So it’s –this might be a random one, but for me, Town Pizza.
H: Woah.
B: Wow.
Y: … is my favorite because it’s like a really a community pizzeria. It’s like a local place, and I’m from New York and, like, just getting a slice. That’s what I’m all about. I’m at … the hot slice with the perfect crust.
H: So you’re about the New York pizza in New Haven.
Y: Well, it’s totally New Haven pizza to be fair. It’s got the New Haven crust situation going on. Okay. But it’s the way in which you just see regular New Haven folk. Like, this is the vibe. The vibe is like mom and pop. The vibe is like deliciousness and like, “Hey, we probably take a vacation to Southern Italy in the summer, and we’re just awesome people,” and I just love it.
H: That’s good. That’s very wholesome. Very wholesome.
Y: Delicious sauce. Delicious sauce.
H: Okay. My favorite thing, which I would think isn’t really a student thing, except that I ran into students doing this, which is hiking on the weekends.
Y: Oh, yeah.
H: Because if you, like I do, have a Connecticut license plate, it’s free parking at all the state parks, of which there are many. Mhmm. So we like to go to a different state park every Saturday and hike with the dog, which–there was one time I was hiking up Sleeping Giant and ran into what I can only describe as a gaggle of seminarians, who were like, “Is that your husband? Is that your dog?” This is before they all knew Nelly. It was great.
Y: I feel like Nelly should be on the show. I mean, I’m not sure what Nelly would do on the show, but, like, you would get a lot of viewers.
H: That’s a really good point.
B: I feel like Nelly could run the booth.
Y: Shout out to our producer. Like, I think you also would love Nellie. May not be the best apprentice, but super lovable.
B: Nellie’s coming for you.
H: Lovin’ that. Let’s bookmark that.
B: You can hike the Appalachian Trail here in Connecticut. Have you done this yet?
H: No.
B: You can. Yeah. In the north, the northwest corner of the state, Bear Mountain is Appalachian Trail Country. So good hiking, good pizza.
Y: Okay. But now we come– well, the other thing is that, speaking of the state parks, I love the sea and the fact that there are incredible beaches here, and back to the freeness, because when you are a student, freeness is very important. It’s critical. Let’s be honest, when you are a less-resourced human who’s studying thing the things, Like, the opportunity to go to an incredible beach and just, like … Yeah. Be with God and your thoughts, and whether it’s winter or it’s summer, it’s gorgeous.
H: I know. It’s amazing. Well, and when I moved here, people were like, “You’re from California. This is gonna be so disappointing. You’re gonna hate it.” No. It’s amazing Oh. Because it’s not crowded. It’s not as touristy. It’s just, like, serene.
Y: Sandy beach without a lot of people.
H: Yes. It’s more like– in the Pacific Northwest, we call it “the coast.” It’s more of a coast.
Y: Okay. Okay.
B: Wow. Okay. Alright. Alright. You learn so much here.
H: What are your Connecticut faves?
Y: You’re a nutmegger. Through and through!
B: We would never call ourselves that.
Y: But I like to do that because I don’t know what that is.
H: It’s so good. It’s so funny.
B: And what do you want to spot? One way to spot the local is by using your ears because you list you would listen for the way people say our beloved city because the locals would say New Haven, not
H: Like, Taco Bell.
B: Right? We wouldn’t say New York or New Jersey, but people do say New Haven. And so that’s the way you can spot the newcomers. And we love sharing.
H: I’m totally an outsider here, but I’ll never convert.
Y: How do you say Hartford? Because this is another test.
B: Oh. So here’s the thing. In Connecticut …
H: We’ve also had this conversation about Norwich.
Y: They don’t say Norwich. Yeah.
B: No. No. We don’t say that. In Connecticut, we swallow internal consonants. Right? So we wouldn’t … so the language that the Romans spoke, how would you say that?
H: Italian.
B: That the Romans spoke.
H: Sorry, Latin.
B: Oh, so you would say this the same way. So, yeah, we would say Latin. We would never pronounce the t in Latin. So your question, we would say Hartford. We would not … you’d not really hear a good strong “t.”
Y: Hart. I had a teacher who would go to the effort. A lot of people do. Like, I had a teacher who would say “Latin, the language of the Caesars.” Yes. And I’m sure he would also have said Hartford. Because, like, I think there is an accent in the United States where people actually don’t … they don’t put stress on this much. Yeah. I don’t know what region it is, but I don’t think it’s a put-on. I think it’s an actual … way of pronouncing.
H: Yeah. It’s like where you place your … this is a whole– there’s a whole thing about …
Y: “The umfasis on the salable” sort of thing.
H: But also, it’s like where you put your voice in your mouth.
Y: Oh. Interesting. Yeah. So what’s your thing?
B: Okay. So let me put in a word for just Litchfield County in general and Washington Depot, home of Gilmore Girls.
H: Gilmore Girls.
B: Definitely worth just a drive.
H: One of our students right now is watching through Gilmore Girls for the first time, which I think is appropriate preparation for or activity during seminary here at Yale.
Y: I love that. That’s heartwarming.
B: For sure. Yeah.
H: It is. Except she’s, like, not impressed by Lorelei or Rory, which I think is valid. I said I liked them better before I went to therapy.
Y: Enmeshment, thy name is “Gilmore Girls.”
B: Okay. So transition alert, listeners. I think why people love Gilmore Girls is not Lorelei or Rory, but it’s the sense of community that exists in Stars Hollow. Right?
H: I see where you’re going with this.
B: You do. Yep. And I think this is another solid B+ transition.
H: Which brings us to why we’re here today.
B: And one of the things that I love…
Y: Are we on a journey, Brandon? Are we on a pilgrimage?
B: One of my favorite aspects of our work, and of Berkeley Divinity School at Yale, and that is our sense of connection and community. And, and in fact, we have, in some ways, the Dean whose, pastoral job it is to care for our community. And so it’s so great to have you here.
Y: Oh, thank you so much. As you probably can tell, I just–I feel so chuffed to be here and be part of the band. And yeah. It’s great to be here with the two of you. This is wonderful. I don’t know if I’m the dean of all of that. You–we’re all kinda sharing that.
H: I consider myself the VP of Vibes. So this is a space in which you can create your own title.
Y: VP of Vibes? What?
H: I’ve also been called the fun aunt of Berkeley, which I think is a pretty good job description for what it is that I do around here. They say, “You just show up and give us cool stuff.”
Y: It’s true, y’all. When it comes to, like, really great, like paraphernalia, it’s you.
B: Hi. I’m Brandon Nappi.
H: Hi. I’m Hannah Black, and we’re your hosts on the Leaders Way podcast.
B: A Yale podcast empowering leaders, cultivating spirituality, and exploring theology.
H: This podcast is brought to you by Berkeley Divinity School The Episcopal Seminary at Yale.
Welcome to the show. Today, we have with us the Associate Dean and Director of Formation for Berkeley Divinity School, the Episcopal Seminary at Yale, Yejide Peters Peterson.
Y: Whooo! Oh, I feel like so happy that … I don’t know. You hear your own title and you’re like, hey, that’s a pretty good job. I like that job.
H: That is what I do!
Y: My golly, I like what I do.
B: There’s a little extra sparkle in the studio.
Y: I know. Because I’m with you two.
H: So sparkly.
Y: But it’s true.
H: I am wondering whether you can describe for our listeners what it is that you do, maybe how they might encounter you if they were to plan a campus visit or come to seminary at Berkeley, and, like, what a day in the life of Dean P. is like.
Y: Sure. Well, let me start out by saying that, I really love my job, and so, forgive me if I sound very enthusiastic. It’s genuine. Every day is different and like a lot of people who are in my vocation as a priest, I have to say that’s one of the things I both love and sometimes am challenged by because there’s no every day being the same day.
I teach. I teach three classes each year, two in the fall and one in the spring. I am the Director of Formation, which means that I help students find their way vocationally. I help students find where God might be calling them, and I support them in being equipped to do that work, not just in the future, but right now. And I’m there pastorally for students, and so is Dean McGowan, who is our Dean and President. We work together as a team along with all of our other amazing colleagues to really create a supportive community, for one another and for our students, and it’s a really rewarding thing.
So I can’t say there’s one way a day is, but I guess on a typical day, I might see three students for conversation. I might teach a class. I’ll go to morning prayer in the morning. Not in that order, but you get the picture. I might see a com-
H: You do get a lot done in the mornings, though. I’m very impressed by this.
Y: I am an early riser …
B: I’ve noticed that. Woah. The emails flying in way before breakfast.
Y: But I’m also, like … I also kind of peak around 3 o’clock, and so the productivity goes down. And so I try to adjust to my own, you know, internal clock, if you will. So I have pretty serious job skills.
H: So what classes do you teach? What are these mystery classes that someone might take at Yale Divinity School as an Episcopal Seminarian?
Y: Well, okay. So I teach, I teach three. Two classes I teach are really about Anglican formation. So we’re … Yale Divinity School is an interdenominational, ecumenical space, and so we have all kinds of amazing colleagues from all kinds of parts of Christianity. And part of my job here is to help people who come here either seeking to learn more about the Episcopal or Anglican church or somebody who already knows if that’s their home community. Helping them grow, and an understanding of what that could be. Either as a lay or ordained person. So those classes are about that.
And then one class, and I –Dr. Black teaches the other part of that class. There’s a series of classes, Part 1 and a part 2, and I teach part 2. Dr. Black, AKA Hannah, teaches part 1. And that class is about Anglican history and theology, and that’s sort of like a panoramic view of the high and low lights from, you know, King Henry’s adventures, and those were adventures, to how we got here today.
B: That’s another podcast episode. That is not …
Y: An adventure for sure. We should do a reenactment, but, like, not, like, the real reenactment.
H: That’s where Nellie comes in.
Y: This is it.
H: Nellie would be, like, Cardinal Woolsey whispering in the king’s ear. Like, “I heard this reformation is happening on the continent.”
Y: “This could be for you.” So that’s what I do.
B: I’ll be St. Thomas Moore.
Y: Well– we don’t … we want you to stay alive no matter what occurs.
B: No. I wanna dead scene.
H: A Dead scene. Stay tuned.
Y: This is the part where you see our secret dreams. We clearly wish we were thespians. Instead, we’re just people who work at a seminary.
H: I do– there is like a pipeline, a theater to priest pipeline.
Y: That’s true!
B: The Venn diagrams are seriously overlapping.
Y: That also was like being an attorney. Oddly enough.
H: I was thinking that …
Y: What’s that group?
B: Okay. Attorneys out there listening, we see you. And we love you.
H: Did you know that RBG was once in an opera?
Y: What?
B: Relatively recently, I think. A couple years before she died.
H: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Y: Rest in peace, but wow. may your memory be for a blessing, but wow.
H: Yeah. Mhmm. Wow. Sorry. That was a little bit of a rabbit hole.
Y: But one that we were happy to go in with you.
B: We’re back out. So I wonder if you can tell us this story. Speaking of panoramic views … Take us on the panoramic views of your life. There’s New York. There’s Michigan. I think you worked in communications? Yeah. There’s priesthood. There’s countries …
H: And now you say stuff like chuff.
B: And continents, and then you’re using words that I don’t understand.
Y: Do not believe Brandon Nappi. This is all a scam. Very well read and super smart. But anyway, back to … I mean, it’s a pretty ordinary story of call. I grew up in New York. I have three brothers and one cousin who grew up with us, who’s our brother. And so I have four brothers. And I had an ordinary life in New York and in Manhattan. So, you know, as we like to call it, “the city,” as if there are no other cities.
I digress. Then I went to Michigan for undergrad, where I studied African-American and African Studies, and I got I got sucked into church, y’all. I was totally, like, team Jesus, but not team church. In fact, I went around telling people that I didn’t believe in vocations. I would actually go like this, “vocation.”
B: Oh, with scare quotes.
Y: With scare quotes, like, as if, like, “so-called vocations.” And I, my opinion was that people didn’t have vocations. They just thought they did or wish they did, and then they just landed on Jesus. But then, this is the thing about saying these sort of things to people, then it … then it’s you. Right?
So that happened to me. So long and short of it is, I was surprised too. And I ended up going to school at Sewanee, and then transferring to here at Yale where … from which I graduated. But before I went to seminary, for a while, I worked for the Association of American University Presses, which produced the books that we see around us. This is –Yale University Press is a member– and I got to have a total nerd out, and go to conferences with, like, scholars, and get free books, which was amazing. Yes. And I just loved it, and so I still have a heart for, you know, editorial stuff and typeface and monographs and weird things that probably people don’t want to talk about, but Kerns are fun to me.
H: I do. This is like the 3rd time we’ve talked about kerning recently. I’m not even kidding.
B: We need a kerning episode, clearly. Yeah. The third time within a month. Organically.
H: That we’ve talked about kerning. Organically.
Y: Let’s just say it’s magical. Let’s just say I love to talk about a san serif. It matters. Let’s talk about it. So anyway, in in any case, then I, you know, went to seminary. I graduated. I worked at … and my –your first job when you’re a priest often is called a curacy, and I did one of those. And then I was the rector of a parish, and I was there for eight and a half years in suburban New York. And then I went to England. And I was at a parish in a, like, a rural market town. There’s no equivalent in the US, but kinda like imagine, like, a big town in a more rural area.
Like that’s where I was the priest of like the big church in the big town in the kind of rural area. And then I came back here to work with all you wonderful people. So that’s my journey, and, what I can say is, I feel like if you’re listening to this podcast and you have either of these reactions, a) … “Oh, God. Oh, God. Let me turn this off, because I really don’t wanna do that. Let’s swim away from the current.” Or the part where you’re like, “Yeah. That sounds like something that might happen to me or happen to me.” Please give me drop me an email. Give me a call. I love to talk to people who are thinking about these things, and you don’t have to know exactly where you land on those things to start asking those questions. And that’s what I love about where Berkeley at Yale is right now. In terms of our, you know, tuition situation, if you have any demonstrated need, tuition is free. That’s right. You heard it right. You heard it first here. Free. For anyone with demonstrated need, it’s free. So there has never been a better time to ask those questions among amazing scholars. Some of the best minds in the world, and I say that without some sort of fanfare, are at our school. And I am so excited that you might be thinking that this could, might be, maybe a thing you wanna do.
H: Okay. I can think of a third kind of person who’s maybe, like, watching this from our website, being, like, when do I apply? I’m ready.
Y: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
H: And I think that kind of student can be still two kinds of students. There’s maybe a postulant in a diocese, etcetera. Like, the ducks are in a row. Or there’s a person who’s super excited, wants to apply, but the ducks be scattered. This happens all the time, and both are, I think and there’s also you might be out there saying, I’m none of those things. If in any way you feel led, and by led I mean it’s nudging you. By led I mean, when you hear this this, you know, episode and you go to sleep, you’re kinda like, Why am I still thinking about it? That’s a nudge. Just drop us a line, and we love having people come to visit campus. You too can see where Brandon Nappi keeps delicious chocolates for free in his …
B: Plentiful chocolate storage.
Y: Plentiful! And like, I’m talking high-end chocolates here, friends. I’m not talking, you know, the chocolates that your grandma has on the bottom of her purse. I’m talking the good stuff.
B: So we keep Godiva chocolates in the office, mostly … I mean, to care for our students, of course, but also because we … and our colleagues …
Y: You’re not thinking about caring for me? I wanna let you know, I’m gonna put this right here. I eat at least … at least two a week.
B: I see the stats. It’s dwindling.
Y: Wait a minute. Don’t blame me for that. Don’t blame me for that.
B: But secondarily, Godiva Chocolates, if you’re listening, we’d love a corporate sponsorship.
Y: Oh, we really would. It’s the … it’s the chocolate of the thinking people. Those who care. You have a heart for the world and love, and you have a mind for the higher things. Godiva, this could be you. This could be you. Could it be any better?
B: Wow. Okay. Mhmm. It’s done. I think that’s …
Y: And they also have, like, blue wrappers and, like, isn’t, like, blue one of our colors at Yale? I mean, it’s a color from the Berkeley seal. This is … it’s all it can all come together. Speak to Hannah about that.
H: While we’re talking about our colors, our fun, like, rah-rah Yale self, I feel like we need to address the winged ox in the room.
Y: Can I bring the winged ox into it?
B: Yeah. There’s an ox in the middle of the room.
Y: For those who are watching on YouTube.
B: Give us a little ring of the bell.
H: And a little something for the listenesr.
Y: I just wanna describe it for those who are not watching. This is a furry … looking slightly befuddled-looking stuffed animal. Bigger than a stuffy, but smaller than an animal that you would keep in the corner of a room standing up. It’s and … it’s … okay. How do … this is like a little a little ox, but it’s got some wings of dubious origin attached to it. That means those wings did not come with this ox originally, and it’s got a little bell tied around it. It’s as cute as you might imagine.
B: It’s cute. Yeah.
Y: Yeah. Lucas.
H: So the story of Lucas is that we say morning prayer every day in St. Luke’s chapel in the Berkeley Center, and there’s an art history tradition of each of the four evangelists having a symbol. So Luke is a winged ox, and we recently developed a little cartoon winged ox that we affectionately call Lucas, and he’s become kind of like a secondary mascot. Like, we all know we all love Handsome Dan, and he is our mascot. But here at Berkeley, we have a secondary mascot.
Y: I just wanna give a shout out to the person who created Lucas. They’re across from me at this table. Dr. Hannah Black, this was pure genius and …
H: Thank you.
Y: He has become a symbol … Of our desire for freedom but also connection.
H: That’s true. Right? Flying into regions beyond …
Y: This is what I’m saying.
H: … Not in a colonial way.
Y: No. We don’t need to do that. move …
H: We have moved on.
Y: We mean the regions that God has promised … God is already there. We don’t need to go meet people and convince them.
H: Oh, my gosh.
B: The second awkward transition of the episode …
H: Okay. Here we go.
B: There is something that I appreciate about the befuddled nature of at least this current Lucas, who’s a Highland cow … When he’s not playing the winged ox …
H: Or a hairy coo … I believe we have some Scottish listeners, so they’re probably rolling their eyes. Right?
Y: Oh, darn.
B: Because for a lot of folks who are discerning, wrestling with this idea of ordination, there is a lot of befuddlement and confusion. Can you maybe share a little bit about any experience with discernment, struggle, really wanting to hear from God, and what you hear from students on a day to day basis? Because I think some … certain people feel like if I don’t hear a voice from God telling me what to do, I’m not called.
H: Yeah. That is my preference, I’ll say.
Y: Well, yeah. I … that’s so helpful. I’ll say a little bit about my own experience and then a little bit about what I hear from students and how I try to be of support to them. When I was in the process, I am, it’s funny that I’m now doing this work because I was very ambivalent about my call, and I’ll tell you how ambivalent I was. How did I get started in the call?
My rector in Ann Arbor said to me, I wanna talk to you about going to seminary. And then I began avoiding my rector, and my rector finally said, I feel like you’re avoiding me. And I said, “Oh, no. I’m not.” But I totally was. In fact, it was the chaplain of the Kenbury House there, and I went to have lunch with him, and we chatted, and he said to me, “What are you afraid of? Just see. Because if it’s not for you. It’ll just roll right off.” That was the trickery of all trickeries. So, it didn’t roll right off. This is why I’m here now. But I will say, while I was in school, I was still discerning, discerning so much that when my ordination date came up, it was March 15, 2008. February 13th, I still didn’t have a collared shirt and I didn’t have a stole for my ordination And, my dearest friend at the time said to me, were, you know, “Aren’t you excited?” And, I said, “Yeah.” And, and he said, “Do you have your shirt?” And, I said, “No.” And, he was like, “Woah.” I said, “Well, what if they change their mind?” And he said, “Get your … it’s like it’s … we’re here now. They’re not gonna change their mind. It’s gonna happen.” But I said that to express that one needn’t be certain or confident to deeply follow God’s voice.
And I wish I could tell you and then it all stopped being that way for me, but that’s a lie. I continue to be myself, as you might imagine, and be ambivalent. That’s the key personality trait for me, and my priest, my bishop told me, I was saying, “Well, how will I discern where I’m gonna go after my curacy?” And he said, “Just do what’s just keep going forward.” And if it’s not no, if it’s maybe or yes, you just keep going forward until it’s a yes or it’s a no.
And he was absolutely right. And so, I think I admire people for whom discernment is a very clear choice. I admire people who hear a call and then say yes. I’m someone who took a lot of convincing, and I’m truly grateful that at school, I meet students with every kind of experience, but –and I would say that I haven’t met any students who have never experienced ambivalence. I think at some point in our journey of discernment and discovery, we face moments where we really ask ourselves, “Am I enough? Is this real? Do I have what it takes? Is it worth it?” And what I would say is that in my experience, I have never been more fully alive than I am as a priest in God’s church, and I feel so grateful that I wake up every single day. Even on days that might be meh, I wake up every single day excited and grateful that I was called to this.
H: So what changed between Young Yejide being like “People are just making up this vocation stuff, this call nonsense,” to helping people walk through discerning their call?
Y: Yeah. I think maybe because I was that person, I have a lot of compassion for the ways in which people come in a variety of experiences and conditions to the possibility of a vocation, whether lay or ordained. I really have a lot of compassion for what we don’t know about ourselves even. And because people were so kind and compassionate to me, I feel it’s the greatest gift of my life to accompany other people the way that people accompanied me as a younger person who didn’t have that confidence in myself.
It took the community around me to sense that and say to me, you do have a call. I didn’t see that in myself. And, very often, and this is maybe controversial, but many younger women experience their calls from other people saying they have a call and not from within their own internal narrative. And that has a lot to do with how we’re socialized and many other things. So I just think–it’s not only women; it’s people who may just not have been told that they have what it takes for certain things. So I think maybe it’s my experience that makes … I think that might be the only reason why I’m qualified to do this, in some ways, is that having had the most unusual of experiences in some sense, and saying yes, in one way, I feel like I’m open to someone who’s, like, resisting. And I do have students who are super eager to get ordained and I have students who are on the fence and I have students who decide and discern I’m not called to be ordained. All of that happens and that’s what makes it exciting for us to be there with folks.
We’re like in this wonderful nurturing space of growth where people are discovering and they’re changing sometimes very rapidly and to becoming exactly who God is calling them to be. And no one knows, not even them, what that’s going to turn out to be. Isn’t it exciting to watch folks like get that or those like slow aha’s?
H: Yes. And it’s something just magical happens when you’re a student, and it doesn’t matter how old our students are. And our students are– many of them are older than me. But when you’re a student, you get the opportunity to dream about the world. Do you know what I mean? Like, everything is possible. We can imagine better ways to do church. We can imagine what our life is gonna be afterwards. We can question things. It’s a safe space to deconstruct if we need to. We can reconstruct if we need to. It’s just it’s magic.
B: Yeah. And we’re often in in the worst place to be able to watch our own growth. Right? Yes. But the gift that that we have is we have a front row seat to watching people come alive, in ways that sometimes they can’t even see themselves. Yeah. And so it’s such an honor, isn’t it? And I wonder … as Director of Formation, what are those skills, those competencies, those, like, embodied traits that you are trying to help our seminarians cultivate? What are those sort of skills for ministry, that you’ve seen in your life that you really cherish, that you’re trying to share and pass along to the folks you work with?
Y: That’s a good question. I think I really believe in the model of residential formation because it does something that no book can do. And the students at at Berkeley are very bright, very capable people. And in another time and a place, most of them could just read for orders. That means you get a bunch of books in the mail, and then you have a tutor who speaks with you maybe from time to time, you know, either on the phone or via Zoom or something and you correspond and you build the competencies academically to be able to, have the skill set of knowledge that’s needed for someone to be an ordained person.
But what happens in community, and what is so powerful, is the dawning awareness of who you really are. And that’s a complicated thing. It’s who you really are in all the wonderful ways that we are human and loved by God and grace with the gifts of the various things. Intellect, compassion, insight, you know, fortitude. And it’s also the things that … with which we struggle.
And so what I wish for each of my students and what I try to help them look at, is how will you become a person who will be humble enough to truly see yourself and to surround yourself in your closest circle with people who will speak life into you, but also will tell you the truth about things. And that’s a hard thing. It’s a hard thing in a world that values image and in a sort of glossy perfection over truth, it’s a hard thing to hear I’m not perfect, or to realize I failed. And as a priest, one of the things I take to heart and I say to my students, and I’ve always–not always, but over time as I’ve grown as a person who’s serving God and God’s people– is I will fail you. I will fail you because I am human. And I will not want to fail you, but I will not be able to do all the things that even I have hoped to do. And what will make us strong together is if I have the capacity to, when I’m wrong, admit that to you and ask you how we can go forward in another way. I think we don’t live in a world where people are willing to say that or a world that values that and the church must be that. And so there aren’t many things I can give to these amazing people that God is calling to ministry that no one else can give. There’s nothing I can give that no one else could give.
But what I try to give is a wisdom I don’t think you can find in a book. And I try to give it through my example, through my prayerful support, through joy and laughter, through helping to create community, through my … through relating to my colleagues in certain kinds of ways, and through myself growing. And then I think it shows up because that’s who God is. God is the God of reconciliation and love and kindness and patience and compassion and this is who we know in Jesus Christ, so I can trust that that’s going to happen.
And I … I would be remiss if I didn’t say how inspired I am by our students. By their by their hopefulness and compassion, by their zeal for being God’s people in a world that is so shattered. It remakes my hope in what could be every day. To see what they give up, whether it’s as someone who’s mid-career or someone who has many possibilities. What they give up to say yes to a thing that is uncertain. I admire them immensely and have the greatest respect for them. And I think the church is lucky to have them, blessed to have them even.
H: So speaking of coming to seminary with your whole self, could you tell us a little bit about who belongs at Berkeley at Yale?
Y: Every single person is a child of God and every single person belongs not only in Christ’s church, but in this place in which we are forming leaders. Now, I’m not in charge of who God calls to what things, but I can assure you that theological education is for anyone who feels drawn to learn more about the story of God and God’s people, to learn more about who Jesus is and how he saves us, and whether Berkeley Divinity School at Yale is the right place for you or not. The Episcopal Church is an incredible place. One of the great gifts of our tradition has been education. And we have some of the most outstanding institutions for learning about how we are all God’s people, in the church. So it’s not just us, but Virginia Theological Seminary, the Seminary of the Southwest, Nashota House, you know, Bexley, Seabury, there are all kinds of ways and spaces in which that happens. But here, we believe that who God has called you into being, whether you have come to know that over time in your life, whether—whoever–when you were born, you were loved and embraced by your family or not–Jesus Christ embraces you and so do we. And there’s a place for you. And that there is nothing, if there’s nothing that we could ever do to make God love us less, there’s certainly nothing that about who we are that could prevent God from calling us into service.
B: So I wonder if we could speak about 2 possible elephants in the room that folks might feel. And one is … I’m sorry?
H: Winged oxes.
B: Winged oxes in the room.
H: Oxen.
B: Oxen. Sorry. And one might be this question of, “I’m not in process with the diocese.”
Right? Or or maybe Yale is too scary and intimidating a place to think about even applying. So can you speak to both of those issues? Do I have to be in process with my diocese, and talk us through this Yale thing that gets in our many of our heads and can really kinda create this imposter syndrome. Who am I to even think about applying to Yale? Because to be a student at Berkeley is to fully be a seminarian at Berkeley, but it’s also to be fully a student at Yale with all of the resources and supports and opportunities that come with a, you know, one of the world’s great universities. So can you speak to those two things?
Y: I wanna just go back to our previous question and say very explicitly, because sometimes people have veiled things. It might be very clear that your sexual orientation, gender identity, country of origin, ethnicity, race, class, family background, resources. None of that is a barrier to you being not just … not tolerated in our community, but welcomed in all that you are and all that you have. And even if we are challenged because we are human and we are limited by things that we may not understand, it is my responsibility and my role to make sure that every obstacle to your full thriving is removed. And I take that extremely seriously. And so does Dean McGowan. We are here to set you free, in the words of the winged oxen, set you free to be the person God has called you to be in service to God’s church.
So to go back to the question about potential seminarians and being in process in the same way and perhaps in a much more nominal way. We understand that the church is a complex place, and we think if you feel called to be here, your not being in a process needn’t prevent you from coming here certainly to have a visit, but even to enroll. We’ve had many people enroll who have been discerning, who have found a place to call home as a diocese while they’ve been with us, and we’ve had diocese that through dialogue with us and with the student have discovered and said, “Yes, you’re in our diocese and you went to another, but we wanna bring you in.” So we don’t want a process to keep you from saying, not maybe, not yes yet, but maybe or I could look into that. Well well, that’s that’s that’s wonderful.
And then to the question about Yale, and this I think is a question that gets to the ways in which certain people have been disenfranchised from elite educational experiences. I would say two things. One is what a priest, who is a brother at Holy Cross said to me when he was giving me spiritual direction. And he said, we must be ambitious for God. Being ambitious for God means using every talent that God has given us and fully developing it for God’s glory. And I believe it’s not the name of Yale, but the incredible faculty and staff at the school. That means if you felt even curious about studying with even one of those people on that faculty or about the experience of being at a an institution with the capacity to walk with you through deep and wonderful and quirky and interdisciplinary questions, please come and see us. This is a place for all people, and I want to affirm the work that Yale has done over the last, you know, 15 years to really open the doors wide to every child, every young person who could be a part of this incredible project of learning and growth together. And I wanna say, even if you feel afraid, can you let us be the people who take a look at that and maybe not count yourself out? I’d love to see your name in the number. I’d love to have that conversation. I’d love to chat about that. Please don’t take yourself out of the running for something that you might be dreaming about because you imagine it’s not for you.
H: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.Okay. So we’ve applied. Well, no. No. No. We’ve thought about it. We’ve listened to the podcast. We’ve emailed Dean Peterson. We’ve scheduled a campus visit. We’ve applied, and now we’re arriving on our first day. What’s gonna happen?
Y: Oh my gosh.
H: What do we do? Can you tell us about, like, a little bit about the rule of life? We’ve heard a little bit about classes, but just like, what … What’s it like?
Y: I think I’m gonna go back to put on my student hat. Because I was a student at the school and it hasn’t changed. I’m one of the students who helped to write the rule of life.
B: Wow. I didn’t know what.
Y: And we wrote it in …
B: It’s so beautiful.
Y: Yes. I’m one of the students and there were … it was written by students and it was the process–the project was initiated by students who felt that, you know, we would have these conversations with the dean or the academic dean about what ought to be done, but we couldn’t figure out …What’s the reason why we’re doing all these things. And we sat down with the faculty, with our deans, and we thought about a way of living together and why it mattered. And, we based it on the Rule of Life for the Society of Saint John the Evangelist, who had just, at that point, written a new rule, and we read that rule, and we prayed about … how does that apply and not apply to our lives as seminarians. And what I would say is the Rule of Life is not about a rule as in a ruler. It’s about a path for a life together, in a world in which many of us come from experiences where we haven’t had community with those we didn’t choose. It’s helpful to have a way to talk about how do we live together in diversity? Diversity of opinions, experiences, understandings. And so, this is about … we pray together. We seek the good. We are a peaceable people who assume that other people are thinking good of us. And that’s different than what we do going on. Let’s be honest. We believe that study and prayer and fellowship produce the charisms necessary for a life of service to God and the church
And so, it’s just basically a meditation on that. It’s not some big fancy thing. I was there when we made it in room S111 or whatever that room is. But what it is, is a heartfelt meditation by students and with their faculty and staff advisors about the life we can have together as seminarians. And so what does life look like? You go to class. There’s a lot of moaning involved because … Let’s face it. I’m gonna be honest. Okay? When I was a student, I had a lot of things that I was gonna change about the church. I had moaning about the church. I had moaning about school. I think this is very much appropriate for that stage in one’s development. This is the student magic. This is. And, you know, part of it is… it’s good. Moaning is not bad. We have to be in critique with things. We have to be in dialogue with them.
I think it’s appropriate when one is thinking about what we’ll do, to think about “what I would do differently.” Or what’s not working. And I have to hear that, even if it might be “Dean Peterson, you’re not what’s working for me right now.” That’s important to hear. I mean, this is real. I’m in people’s lives and sometimes I’m sure I’m– I don’t know. I get on their every last nerve. And you know what? That’s okay. It’s important for this place to be a place where you ask those questions and you develop a rubric for, over time, thinking, is it really that it doesn’t work?
Not some things. Or is it that that was hard? And it was uncomfortable, and it did work, but I didn’t always like it. And those are two sort of categories of things.
And so part of I don’t know, and I guess both, all three of us are married. I think part of the rule of life is helping us to demystify Christian community. And much like in American popular culture, people think that marriage is magical. And it is magical in this instead– it’s wonderful you meet someone you wanna spend your whole life with. That’s a pretty amazing promise. But you know what’s not magical? Everybody’s annoying. Everybody. If you don’t think you’re annoying, you’re probably super annoying.
But everybody’s a little irritating and everybody’s a little bit irritated. And so when you get a collection of everybody’s together, even in the name of Jesus Christ or in the name of love or whatever, getting on people’s nerves is definitely par for the course. And so part of what life together has to look like is … how do we live together in that? And how do we distinguish between things that are deforming? Things that are harmful that we need to not do? And things that are just … ugh? And I think that working that out is part of the Christian community experience. Because let’s face it, we go to seminary, we’re like, I’m gonna be with Jesus’ people. We’re gonna think about deep things.
B: Love fest.
Y: We’re gonna pray. Exactly, love fest. And then you’re like, why are you, why do you sing so loud? What’s with that? What is with that? The vibrato. Right. Or, you know, every time you refer to Hegel, every time you’re in class, it comes back to him. Or the person who’s always being silent; I guess you’re holding all the power. I mean, we all have the things that we’re doing, consciously or not, that people have to work with. And then there are the things that we do have to eradicate from our … how we live. When we find out that we are selfish or manipulative or secretive or unkind or gossipy or the prejudices that live inside of all of us, that has to be addressed.
But the being a person and being quite a bit annoying? That is like peak church, friends. But that’s also what we’re preparing for.
H: We are preparing for ministry.
Y: We are preparing for ministry. And also, what no one ever tells you about being a priest, and I’ll say it, and I think people don’t they don’t talk about it because it’s really painful, is when you are with a group of people and then you leave, you never get over that. You never get over how much you loved them, how you accompanied them in the hard the hardest times in their life, the highest highs and the lowest lows. You never get over it. When my parishioners die, I weep because I know them. And I’m not their priest anymore, but they will always be my people. And so, part of this is learning that that’s–love is the showing up. It’s not the magical feelings. And vocation is the showing up for God’s work. It’s not the call. The call is the magical voice in the night. It’s the family member saying you should go to seminary. It’s this annoying podcast –because it’s annoying because you don’t wanna hear about it. But I’m enjoying it personally. But it’s that thing. But the real vocation is the showing up for the yes over and over and over again. Like, the real marriage is not the magical day with the beautiful dress and the, you know, the dresses or the beautiful suits. It’s the showing up every day and saying yes to this to this person, yes to this person, even when that might not always be what you had anticipated.
And especially then. Right?
B: So if someone is really maybe after just having heard what you’ve described, this powerful experience of ministry and being of service, and they think, wow. Yeah. I wanna give myself to that. Can you talk through practically what folk what folks should be doing? When can they come visit? Can they call you anytime? When can they come to campus? Talk us through, like, a typical year. Some folks are gonna be listening to this at all times of the year, right? We hope. Right? So talk us through kind of the rhythm of applying and admission here at Berkeley.
Y: School is in session from the end of August until, the end of April, and there are breaks in between. And our academic calendar can be found easily by just typing in the words “academic calendar” in Yale Divinity School, and you will also see this document which will let you know what–how classes run at our school. But what I will say is that you don’t have to do that work. If you reach out to me, and it’s not deep into the summer; the summer is a difficult time because school is very quiet then, and so often we take time to do our own prayer and reflection, our own rest and family connection time. But anytime, really, if you reach out to me or to my colleagues, we’re quite intentional about reaching back to you and we can have a conversation.
Now how the application cycles run is that the applications open in the in the autumn term, in the fall term, and then the evaluation of those applications begins in the second term, in the spring term, following the initial deadline, which is January, like mid-January usually. And, there’s a later deadline that is the less-preferred deadline. The one because it’s a little bit of a rolling emissions process. If you get in early, there are there are more slots open.
So you can also apply up until February, mid-February. In the beginning of March, we release the offers to students. And then you have a set period of time, around a month, to respond to that offer if you’re offered admission. Very early on in March, we have a visitation day for those who have been accepted. And I want to say if you are accepted and you find that visiting would be a challenge, we would love to have a conversation about how we could support you coming.
We think it’s really important for you to come and see this place, come and see, to make a spiritually informed decision about whether this is where God’s calling you. And, we wouldn’t want anything to stand in the way of that happening. And, we mean anything as in resources too, financial resources too. So, please be in touch. And what I would also say is these things take time. Sometimes, someone might find themselves feeling called and there might be illness in the family or there might be things happening that prevent one from saying yes at that point, it doesn’t mean you can’t reach out to us. We can have a chat. There’s been students that have come to school that I met three years ago and now they’re here. Let us be a part of supporting you in that discernment.
And I’ll say this finally, it is my deepest desire for anyone who’s even considering our school to go to the right place for them. And I believe that God calls us to all sorts of places for our formation, so I’m not someone who’s gonna sit here and say, “Oh, you have to go to Berkeley.” You need to go where God is calling you. And I believe that God will show you where that is. But come and see. We have a lot of fun here.
H: We do. We do. And we have chocolate.
Y: We have chocolate. Godiva, we’re still looking for that.
H: That sponsorship.
Y: But I wanna just turn the table a little bit. So, Brandon Nappi, you are also a graduate of Yale Divinity School. And I think that you can speak a little bit to the experiences of students who might not, at that moment, feel total affiliation, but who are there in a deep learning experience, and exploring who God is and theology and the big questions. Can you speak a little bit to that whole big questions thing that is happening for folks sometimes when they’re at seminary at Yale?
B: Well, I mean, what I really appreciate about our community, it was true, 25 years ago when I was here, as it is true today, is that we really believe that the life of the mind and the life of the heart and the life of action are braided together. Right? This is not just a place to come to be super smart and know things about God. You know, I I preached a sermon in Marquand last year, and I heard myself say it’s one of these Holy Spirit moments that you can it is a great shame if you come here and learn more things about God without knowing God more. Yeah. I think I said, this is not a place to know more things about God. It’s a place to know God more. And this is a place to do precisely that. And we do that certainly through deep study in the life of the mind. But we also do that through a life of prayer. And being together at St. Luke’s every morning is really important, whether I’m there every morning or knowing that the community is gathering there, student community, and praying for me and with me means a great deal.
And yet studying in prayer isn’t enough alone. Right? That we’re forming people to be of service in the world, and I’m just inspired and amazed as I watch our students go off in a 1,000 different ways throughout the semester in internships and CPE and working throughout the community. And so that’s really the kind of integration that happens here. It’s not as if it only happens here. There’s many places where this can happen, but I think there’s a beauty in which it happens here, the heart, the mind, and the hands. And so it’s a it’s a privilege to be a part of a community that values those three things and the way that they’re integrated.
Y: I wanted to just follow-up on that and say that the single the thing that is particular about Yale Divinity School, in particular Berkeley Divinity School and its relationship with Yale Divinity School is that Yale is the only elite seminary in the United States that’s not either a) denominationally affiliated, or, b) a nonsectarian space. So there is incredible … and this is what I think makes Yale unique. And what makes Berkeley unique is, being at Berkeley you get all of the benefits of being in an Episcopal seminary. And that is really going deep into what it means to be an Anglican and what that looks like, you know, from the– not from the pew. Right? From another space, from a a place of of of a different kind of leadership, whether it’s lay or ordained. And you’re also in a conversation with Christians from many different strains and people who may be grappling with where they fit in in any of this. And what that gives you is the ability to be fluent in dialects of Christianity that are not your own.
So the capacity to to understand what it might sound like for someone who’s evangelical to talk about God saving them in Jesus Christ, and to not be turned off, but understand, that’s how that person is speaking about how God came close to them. Or to talk to someone who’s Quaker about the great God of wisdom and truth and light, who is Jesus Christ that’s found in silence. These things can’t … you can read about them in a book, but when you’re worshiping with people in our chapel on campus, Marquand, where the whole school gathers every day at 11:30, you get a foretaste, I think, of the enthronement– around the … just the sense of what it means for people to be trying in the best ways we can as people to worship God in truth, but knowing that we see it in part, but we’re not always comfortable, but it’s exciting and it’s amazing. So we have Baptists and we have Methodists. We have non-denom folks. We have seekers. We have Unitarian Universalists. We have, you know, UCC. We have everything. Yeah. And that … there’s something sacred about that.
And when you go into the parish, the people who come to visit you, the people who are seeking out God in that moment, the majority of them won’t have been raised in an Episcopal church. And so, if you really can’t relate to the songs that bring them life or the ways in which they prayed with their grandmother, there’s something missing there. And that’s the gift that we get here. That’s the gift. And the lifelong friendships with people who are from different spaces and places. I … it’s been fabulous. And I think –and Brandon, I know you and I both have friends that we’ve had over the years since we’ve left who’ve stayed our close and dear friends. And Hannah, you as well in your program in the UK, like, people who … we come from different spaces and we just connect. Right? It’s just amazing.
H: It’s a gift. Come to Yale Divinity School where your world will become bigger.
Y: And you will be loved and challenged.
H: Could you pray for us, Brandon?
Y: Yes!
B: So I brought a prayer that was prayed many thousands of times by me when I was discerning. So I just happened to stumble on this prayer …
H: I prayed this prayer like my life depended on it when I was discerning whether to take this job.
Y: Me too. Oh my gosh. Every day.
B: Oh my gosh, really? Oh I didn’t know that?
Y: Every day!
B: Because I sent you this.
H: I know.
B: So little theology major Brandon, 20 years old, found this prayer in the back of a church, and, it felt like it was meant just for me. But, of course, this is Thomas Merton, his famous prayer.
Y: So, Is it called “For Brandon?” I thought it was called “For Yejide.” That’s why I said that.
B: I’m an only child. I think everything is for me. It’s all for Brandon. So let’s pray.
My Lord God, I have no idea where I am going.
I do not see the road ahead of me, and I cannot know for certain where it will end, nor do I really know myself. And the fact that I think I am following your will does not mean that I’m actually doing so. But I believe that the desire to please you does, in fact, please you. And I hope I have that desire in all that I am doing, and I hope that I will never do anything apart from that desire. And I know that if I do this, you will lead me by the right road, though I may know nothing about it.
Therefore will I trust you always, though I may seem to be lost and in the shadow of death. I will not fear for you are ever with me and you will never leave me to face my perils alone. In Jesus’ name, we pray.
Amen.
Dean Yejide Peters Pieterson. What a treat.
H: Thank you.
Y: This has been such a delight. It’s been wonderful. You all are amazing at this. I love it.
B: Come back to the studio again. Promise?
Y: Listen … for the bants, a hundred percent yes.
H: Thanks for listening to the Leaders Way podcast. You can learn more about this episode at berkleydivinity.yale.edu/podcast. Follow along with us on Instagram at the leadersway.podcast.
B: And you can rate and review us on your podcast app and be sure to hit follow so you never miss an episode. And if you’d like this episode, please share it with a friend.
H: Until next time.
B: Peace be with you.