34: Golden Retriever Games

Hosts: Brandon Nappi and Hannah Black

Production: Goodchild Media

Art: Ella Landino

Music: Theodicy Jazz Collective

B:    Hi, Hannah.

H:    Hey, Brandon. How is it going?

B:    It is going so well. I am trying to contain my excitement for the glow up, which has been in the works from the beginning of time, which I’m being theological about this.

H:    Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. The phrase glow up for our big rebrand of year 2 of the podcast is one of those things where I said glow up, and then it just really stuck. That is exactly what this is.

B:    Mhmm. Yeah. Are you feeling ready? I mean, it’s a big step in our professional lives.

H:    I hope the listeners are feeling ready. But I think our bright shining faces on the new art, hashtag glow up, will probably help ease any confusion.

B:    So I feel like I have to step back for a moment. Mhmm. No. This might be a public service announcement. This might be it might be a trigger warning.

H:    Oh, wow. I in my imagination, there’s that, like, sound that used to come on the TV, like that when you need to know something really important.

B:    Yes. It’s the scary black and white announcement at the beginning of, like, a documentary. And so here it is. This might be the first time you’re seeing our faces. And I’m not sure what you thought we look like. Some folks have said, I’ve heard, that they thought I was much younger.

H:    Oh, yeah. That does keep happening. Than the half century of life that in fact I’ve lived.  And or they think we’re the same age, which … let’s just say it’s a compliment to both of us. It’s a compliment. Some folks not gonna actually dig too deep into that.

B:    No. We’re not. Mhmm. Some folks might have thought, we both were taller than we are.

H:    Well, we are seated, to be fair, but we’re not tall people.

B:    You can’t over imagine how not tall we both are.

H:    That’s exactly true.

B:    Hi. I’m Brandon Nappi.

H:    Hi. I’m Hannah Black, and we’re your hosts on the Leaders Way podcast.

B:    A Yale podcast empowering leaders, cultivating spirituality, and exploring theology.

H:    This podcast is brought to you by Berkeley Divinity School, The Episcopal Seminary at Yale.

B:    So as we begin a new year, it’s also a time to look back on the past year.

H:    Yes. It is.

B:    Are there any, particular conversations that rise to the surface for you as favorites or just particularly evocative?

H:    That’s such a good question. I kinda wanna pull up a list. What about you? Are there any right off the top of your head?

B:    Oh, gosh. I mean, there are a few. You know, the sense of wonder in the universe was really cultivated in our conversation last April with Graziella Zinn, a person of deep faith, an astronomer. Just this reminder of the majesty, the beauty, the awe, the wonder, that we have in the face of creation.

And then–and that in some ways, for me, my life in theology and ministry and preaching began with just the connection with the wonder and beauty of the natural world. And, I think I wanna commit to bringing that wonder and awe and beauty into my teaching and my work with students and our work with leaders. But she got so excited about black holes and planets and things. It was really fun.

H:    Yeah. And in a world where we’re also where we’re often hearing science versus faith, or in spaces that I inhabit, science and faith, it was really great to hear from somebody whose science nourishes her faith.

B:    Yeah. That that beautiful and that joins the two, science and faith together in this mutually enriching way. Yeah. Mhmm. Absolutely. Now what about you? Any episodes come to mind?

H:    Gosh. So I’m looking back, and I loved our conversation with Bishop Vinny, and our conversations with Father Lizzie and Mother Laura, and our conversation with Karen O’Donnell. And I think those three episodes for me really brought together conversations about women in leadership, who haven’t always had the easiest path to get to where they are. But it was such different life stories that we heard, and yet they were all really inspirational to me in different ways. 
    And then, also looking back, we have these episodes about Christianity and American politics, Jonathan Wilson-Hargrove, and the episode about Ordinary Faith in Polarized Times with Amy Carr and Christine Helmer. And we’ve sort of, taken a little bit of a dive into how to be a spiritual leader and conscious of American politics. So that’s not somewhere I thought we were gonna go, but I’ve really loved it. It’s been so interesting. And, of course, by the time we publish this, like, 18 more crazy things will have happened. So, politics are, I think, on the minds of people in an extra intense way these days. So I’m glad we’ve gotten to have those kinds of conversations on this show.

B:    Yeah. I mean, looking back, it’s sort of like picking a, you know, a favorite child. I’m thinking of our amazing conversation with Rowan Williams.

H:    I know. I was just thinking about that to easily one of my favorite moments of the whole year was Rowan Williams teaching us how to pray. Wow.

B:    Or Sophie Grace Chapell. Oh my gosh. The Harry Potter episode? Mhmm. I mean, so many. Yeah. So many good ones. I am so thankful that we got to walk this path together, Dr. Black.

H:    Same same, Dr. Nappi. Well, do you feel like it’s time for a little bit of Golden Retriever games?

B:    The inaugural Golden Retriever Games.

H:    Well, hey. Again, this is gonna kind of date when we’re recording, but tomorrow is the opening games of the Olympics. So when I said Golden Retriever Games, I was thinking about reindeer games, but, actually, maybe it’s more like Olympic games for the theologians and spiritual among us.

B:    Goodness. So, yeah, I’m totally open. I’m … I was gonna say I’m scared, but I’m not like a golden retriever. I am eager and trusting. So what, lead me.

H:    I also have to say, like, just as a disclaimer, I still haven’t told my labrador about this, about how we seem to have this love affair with a different kind of dog. I’d like it on record that I’m a labrador girly, but as a person I’m a golden retriever.

B:    I mean, isn’t the golden retriever just a Labrador in a different font? –Did I pull off the lingo?

H:    You did.

B:    Note to listeners. I am a nearly 50-year-old man using gen-y lingo.

H:    Next you’re gonna be talking about brat summer. Wow. Wow.

B:    I think I correctly used it. I don’t know. I’ll ask my daughters.

H:    Yeah, you did. I’m gonna go with yes. They are more authoritative than I on the subject. But I think we should do … should we do your game first or my game first?

B:    I’m … let’s do your game first.

H:    Wow. Okay. This too, I wish I had a jingle for. But this is a game I have invented specifically for this show, and I think you’ll see why. This is a game called, drum roll, Taylor Swift or Dante.

B:    Wow. Wow. This is gonna be more fun than I thought. Okay.

H:    Okay. So the way the game works is simple. I feel like you already know without me explaining. I will say a quote, and you will tell me, Is it Dante or is it Taylor Swift?

B:    Okay. Uh-huh.

H:    Okay. I think they’ll probably get progressively harder, but we’ll see.

B:    Alright.

H:    Okay. Question 1 or quote number 1. You kept me like a secret, but I kept you like an oath. I can tell you already know it.

B:    This, of course, is Taylor Swift’s All Too Well 10 minute version.

H:    Wow.

B:    Yeah. I gave you a little extra.

H:    Wow, bonus points.

B:    Yeah. Also in also on my, playlist, a Peloton playlist.

H:    So Okay. Again, the we’re starting easy, and it’s gonna get harder. The path to paradise begins in hell.

B:    Wow. The path to paradise begins in hell. Well, of course, that is what’s happening in the Divine Comedy. Indeed. That’s basically a plot summary.

H:    Right. That’s a plot summary.

B:    But it feels like it could be. But it feels too colloquial in 20th century. And so while I don’t know this lyric, it sounds like something Taylor would say, and so I’m gonna go with Taylor.

H:    Incorrect. That is definitely Dante.

B:    Wow. Mhmm. So what translation did you use?

H:    Yeah. So I thought you would ask that, and I thought that this moment would come. These are definitely taken from Goodreads, which doesn’t specify translator nor which book. So, like, for one of these, I have Dante, comma, Inferno, and that’s as that’s as good as it’s gonna–I don’t have a canto for you.  I don’t have a translator. It’s certainly It would have been good of me to reread the whole Commedia for the purposes of this game, but I did not do that.

B:    My, my guess is that that’s not a literal translation, and this may be one of these moments of knowing too much. That I actually make the wrong ad. So I’m not making excuses. I’ll take it. Okay. One wrong item.

H:    If we have future golden retriever games, another thing I’d like to do is, take some famous quotes, put them through Google Translate 200 times, and then make you guess what they are.

B:    That’s fantastic. Okay. Alright. I am failing so far.

H:    Well, yeah, 50% is an F, but we’re this is not we’re not in Yale right now in that way. Okay. Quote number 3. Remember tonight, for it is the beginning of always.

B:    Wow. I don’t know this one. That also sounds really Taylor, and it can’t be. That can’t be Dante. “Remember tonight, it is the beginning of always.” I mean, I wanna imagine Dante and Beatrice, like, walking down the street in Florence, but, of course, they never really had much of a relationship. Right? It was in the Italian courtly love tradition, so it was all in the mind. So I’m going Taylor.

H:    Dante.

B:    Oh my gosh.

H:    Dante according to Goodreads. So if you’re listening and you know where that is in Dante, please inform us. Okay. Okay. Okay. Number 4. 
“I made you my temple, my mural, my sky. Now I’m begging for footnotes in the story of your life.”

B:    Oh, that’s definitely Taylor. If you tell me it’s Dante, then this whole project has imploded.

H:    That is indeed Taylor. And what is it from?

B:    Do you know which song?– is that Love Story?

H:    I have “Taylor, Tolerate It.”

B:    Oh, tolerate it. Uh-huh. Okay. Mhmm. I don’t know that one lyric. Okay.

H:    There is no greater sorrow than to recall a happy time when miserable.

B:    Oh, that’s definitely Dante.

H:    Ding ding ding. Yay. Well done. Well done.

B:    Oh, that poor tortured man. I know. Yeah. I followed him all around Florence eating gelato along the way, just wishing he could have come back home to the city that he was exiled from. Okay.

H:    Okay. Number something. “Do not be afraid. Our fate cannot be taken from us. It is a gift.”

B:    Oh, yeah. That sounds like Dante.

H:    Nice. Yeah. Yeah.

B:    Okay. Quoting Jesus.

H:    Here’s your final quote. I think you’ve pretty much redeemed yourself at this time.

B:    Oh, okay.

H:    Okay. This one … okay. No. I’m not giving you any hints. “Lord, what will become of me once I’ve lost my novelty?” Taylor or Dante?

B:    Hmmmm. Yeah. That sounds that sounds a lot like Taylor always feeling like she has to be the shiny, new, exciting thing and yet put … and yet trying to resist that impulse, and yet feeling nonetheless the pressure. So I’m going with Taylor.

H:    Well done. I feel like somebody out there was screaming in their car while you were deliberating that one.

B:    I am so impressed with the quality of your game. Wow. I mean, thank you. So this is going to inspire me to create a similar game for you, my friend. Stay tuned.

H:    It’s gonna be “Spaceship Earth or the Beinecke.”

B:    Well, I’m thinking I’ll give listeners just a little heads up. I’m thinking, inspired by what you’ve just done, of a game called, “Is it Gregory or Gregory?”

H:    And then do you cut it, and it’s either cake or …

B:    And it will be either quotes from Gregory of Nyssa or from another famous Gregory throughout history.

H:    That would be hard.

B:    It would be hard. Right?

H:    Okay. Good. The harder, the better. Bring it on.

B:    So my game for you is much less entertaining. It’s a little more serious. So this is– but it’s also close to home. This is, what we call the question game.

H:    Okay. I’m ready.

B:    So any, at any, dinner table experience here at the Nappi Home, if you’re a guest in our home or just regular dinner, dinner time with my in laws who live with us, my two kids, my wife, the cats. I often ask questions. And then we simply go around and answer questions. The question might be, chocolate or vanilla. It might be your … cake or pie. But, they’re just simply questions so that we could get to know each other a little better even after all these years. So I have three questions if you’d be so willing to play the question game.

H:    Wait. Do you also answer the questions? Oh, I do.

B:    I do. But I wait until someone asks me the question in return because usually, they sort of move on.

H:    Sure. So I can see. Yeah.

B:    I don’t wanna answer the question and …

H:    So you start the fire and then move on.

B:    Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, question one, what’s a big theological question that you’re thinking about right now?

H:    Oh. Oh my goodness. This is gonna be predictable. But our recent conversation that I think might be coming out right after this or right before this, our recent conversation with Eliza Griswold in which she located salvation versus universalism as theology that informs dynamics between people has really gotten me thinking again about a question that I’ve been thinking about for a long time, which is, you know, Who is saved, how, and then, like, how do we go about the world with the theology that we hold? And the thing that’s really interesting to me is how our theology affects the way we go about loving the world, loving our neighbor, and that kind of a thing.
    So I’m just I’m thinking about that all over again, because she described growing up in a context in which that was never part of her theological milieu. Whereas I grew up at a context where I was like, you’re ordering your sandwich at Subway? You better convert that person to Christianity. It’s like your duty. So those are, like, polar opposite experiences, and it’s the theology that’s dictating the way you move out the world, which is really interesting. Do you have one? Do you have a theological nugget that’s been sticking with you?

B:    I do. And it’s really the nature of mystical experience, actually. Right? I mean, we, you know, we call Juliet of Norwich a mystic. You know, she’s on the cross. You know, many others throughout.

H:    Oh, have you ever been called a mystic by someone else?

B:    I don’t think I’ve ever been called a mystic. But actually, it’s a fair question. Like, when I say that I’ve experienced God, or that I felt God moving in my life, or I saw, like, a beautiful sunrise, and I felt the presence of God. What does that actually mean? And what’s the difference between that and what we might call a mystical experience with a capital M?

H:    I’m like, isn’t everybody a mystic?

B:    Isn’t everyone a mystic?

H:    There was one time I was telling a priest a story about something that had just happened to me in the church service, and he went, “Oh, we have a mystic among us.” And I was like, What?

B:    Right. And so to the second part of this issue is then what’s the relationship between contemplative prayer and mysticism, or really any prayer? Right? Does prayer welcome some kind of experience of God? Does it welcome a mystical experience necessarily, like, by definition? Or do we mean something else when we’re talking about mysticism? Or is this language actually not even helpful, and we need … and maybe this is just what we do in theology all the time. We need different language. We need distinctions. We need to sort of invent new language to be a little bit more precise about what’s happening. Because I’m quite sure that I’ve experienced God, but I’ve I’ve never had a vision like Julian of Norwich, John of the Cross, or Teresa of Avila. 
    So, anyway, that’s what I spend a lot of time thinking about because I teach contemplative prayer. I teach centric prayer. I teach Lexio Divina. And part of me is always sort of thinking, Well, what am I actually assuming is going to be happening when we pray? Anyway, big, huge questions that have no great answers, but that’s what I spend a lot of, like, when I’m making dinner, a lot of time thinking about. 
    So thank you for answering the first question. I said I have 3. The second is a little more tender.

H:    Okay. Here we go.

B:    What’s the one area theologically where you’ve changed your mind the most significantly?

H:    Oh, gosh. I think there are some good ones. I think a lot of my theological growth and change has been really gradual and organic. So it kind of takes looking back several, several years to even notice that there was a change. This is also gonna be kind of practical, but one of the big ones is valuing women’s ordination. At the context I grew up in, I just kind of assumed that I could never be a church leader. I assumed my, like, other girls I grew up with wouldn’t be doing that. You know, some might become pastors’ wives, but they’re like, I had a very specific idea of who was a leader in a church. And, it didn’t bother me at all. I felt like it was an efficient system.It worked. I, like, understood my role. I was happy to do it. Like, I am a person who’s gonna do the task. You know? Like, I’m gonna read the directions. I’m gonna do it. So I like some good directions. 
    But it was one of those things where after I moved to the UK and I started experiencing church with women in leadership, I just noticed that things were a little different. And that in and of itself isn’t even a theology claim. It’s almost more like sociological or something. But I was like, wow. This is really wonderful. And so I think being in churches where women are in leadership has helped me to recognize my own dignity and helped me to understand my conversations with young women and girls differently. It’s been a reframe.
    But, actually, let me give you a second answer to the question, which is that a sort of big fireworks moment for me was in reading Dante and in reading Bernard of Clairvaux, another sort of medieval mystic, and realizing Bernard says at one point that, you sort of … you like, the idea of loving your neighbor–of loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself, a starting point is really loving yourself. And then in sort of Dante’s vision of salvation, and here we are again at salvation, your salvation isn’t for this sort of, like, capitalist-flavored-efficiency thing, where it’s about recruitment. It’s because you have this, like, inherent dignity and value and beauty, and your salvation and your relationship with God is … is the thing. Like, anything else maybe are things to follow, such as mission or social justice or whatever. But, like, there’s this … this stem before the flowers.
It’s, like, the main thing.

B:    Yeah. Bernard of Clervaux, of course, another person who describes God in feminine language as well. So I’m not surprised to hear of how those things linked in his theology.

H:    What have you changed your mind about?

B:    Oh my gosh. I mean, lots of things. I mean, this one is sort of nerdy, and I think it’s in reading Cardinal Newman. I don’t know how many know how many, podcasts at Episcopal seminaries are referencing Cardinal Newman, so I I’m aware that’s kinda weird. But he was the in … sort of in the modern period, among the first to suggest that the church changes and evolves. Actually must. It is like a dynamic organism. And I think I grew up, as many Roman Catholics do, thinking that the church sort of was, like, hatched out into the world, in a kind of permanently perfect state.

H:    Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

B:    I mean, and it’s all, I mean, it sounds absurd to say, but I grew up thinking that the church was a sort of, like, perfect society, and its teaching was perfect, and it was fallible. And bright certain aspects of that infallible are actually sort of enshrined in Catholic ecclesiology. And and Newman helped me to understand that there’s sort of … there’s this dynamic relationship between God and the church.
    And because it’s a relationship, and because the church is relational, it’s evolutionary. And, you know, Teilhard de Chardin talks about the sort of evolutionary nature of our understanding of humanity and anything by definition of Christian community as well. And so, we don’t therefore expect the church to look like what it looked like in the first or second century. There’s no golden age of the church. Right?

H:    Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

B:    Each denomination sort of has this little pet project of, like, if we can go back to (x) century. Right? And each denomination has their favorite place when they complete the church.

H:    Oh, and my favorite thing being the kind of nerd that I am is when different denominations point to the same exact historical thing that we usually don’t know that much about. Say that something totally different happened, and then use it as, like, the basis for their claim that, you know, the Eucharist should happen like this, or whatever.

B:    Oh, gosh. Yeah. So, I mean, that gives me hope. It makes me excited. And so that really at the essence of being a Christian is just … is as Willie Jennings said, another wonderful episode that we had, is to yield to the Holy spirit, the action … living, breathing action of the Holy Spirit, which is constantly changing moment to moment. So I think, like, that just impacts everything else, I believe. So, yeah, that’s fun. 
    Okay. My final question. When they make the movie about your life as a theologian …

H:    Oh, no.

B:    Who plays you? What’s the part– that’s the first part of the question–Who plays you? What’s the part that you really wanna make sure the producers get right?

H:    Oh, uh-huh.

B:    And let’s be honest that what everyone wants to know, who plays me? Because there’s gotta be a scene, a small scene with me in it.

H:    Okay. Okay. The person who plays me and we’re just gonna assume that, like, time stops and these people can be whatever age at any time.

B:    Absolutely.

H:    I’m torn between Zooey Deschanel and Amy Poehler.

B:    Those are excellent choices. Yes. Yes. Yes. Both brilliant, but also both can be goofy. They can be self-deprecating. Yep. Zooey Deschanel, I think, has the better singing voice. So if there’s a musical opportunity, I think you go with Zooey.

H:    A musical opportunity. The musical about deciding to write a book about Gregory of Nyssa. Okay. And then the part that they need to get right and who plays Brandon. And what age is Brandon relative to me in the … oh, man. Oh, man. I feel like if the movie is about me and not about Brandon or Yale, then you really have, like, the energy of “I am Kenough.” And so …

B:    I’m gonna have to google that.

H:    Did you see the Barbie movie?

B:    Oh, of of course. Of course.

H:    Yeah. Yeah. So I think we’re going in a Barbie movie direction. Is that Ryan Gosling? What’s that guy’s name?

B:    Ryan Gosling. Oh my gosh. I love it.

H:    I think that captures this dynamic perfectly. And then I don’t know about the part they need to get right. I just hope that in the portrayal of my incessant travels, they include both the glamour, which does exist, and also the, like … the heartbreak. Like, you miss out on some things when you’re traveling the world as a glamorous globetrotter, such as stability, in-person friendship. Stuff like that. Yeah.

B:    Wow.

H:    What about you?

B:    I’d pay to see that movie? I’dtTotally pay to see that movie.

H:    Especially if it’s a musical.

B:    I mean, yeah, if it’s a musical. Yeah. We’re spending the weekend in Manhattan. We’re like, renting a room. We’re at the stage door afterward. That’s serious. Yeah. What about me? Who would play me? Okay. Look. This is aspirational. I understand. I would say either Harry Styles, if it’s a musical. I would want Harry Styles to play me. Or musical. Or Timothee Chalamet. I … I’d like

H:    Oh, I can really see that. I can really see that. Okay. Timothee Chalamet.

B:    What part would they would I want to get producers right? I think I’m a pretty earnest person. And I’d want them to get my earnestness, my golden retriever-ness. And I think the central tension like, in in my life, like, as I experience the human condition, is I love, love, love people. I love people, and I feel my heart broken by people, so like, I’m just so sensitive to that. And so there’s a kind of … there’s joy, but there’s also real sadness about just how we hurt one another. I’m not just talking about me, but just, like, humanity is constantly hurting one another. And I wanna make sure in the movie that they’re getting that piece right. 
    Who plays you?

H:    So, basically, we want people to know we do get sad sometimes.

B:    We do. We do. Gosh. I you know, I hadn’t thought about turning the tables and answering the question. The person coming to mind, like this is really fresh. I’m just sort of scanning because I’m not good with actors’ names. 
H:    Yeah. I’m really bad with them too. I mean, as you could tell 5 minutes ago. Yeah.

B:    I’m feeling like a Kristen Bell vibe. Is that … does that work?

H:    Oh, yeah. Yep. Yep.

B:    Kind, affable, funny, smart, and … since we’re talking about the musical opportunity.

H:    Right. Yes, she’s gonna nail it.

B:    It’s gonna be, like, the best musical of all time. Yeah.

H:    What would the songs be about? There would be a song that’s like, I’m a golden retriever, but I get sad sometimes. There would be a song called What Brings You Hope.

B:    Why can’t I stop talking about Dante? Right?

H:    Yeah. Mhmm.

B:    Right? We’re friendly even though we’re at a fancy place.

H:    We’re friendly in a fancy place. And then Praying on the Passaggiata would be also on the soundtrack.

B:    Oh my gosh. There’s definitely a long walk for prayer. I mean, this has been such a fun glow-up episode. I mean

H:    It has. Thanks for those questions.

B:    Yeah, I mean, clearly, I have to up my game game.

H:    Your game game?

B:    You have set the bar …

H:    I don’t know. To clarify. I had fun playing the question game, and I feel like listeners could probably play the question game at home and let us know how it goes and who is playing them and us. But before we go, I feel like we should extend an invitation to our listeners to join us at some of our upcoming courses and workshops. Do you have, like, a handy dandy list in front of you or anything like that? Anything you want to highlight and say, come join us at this beautiful, wonderful opportunity?

B:    We do, Hannah. I’m really excited about the fall because we’re really focusing in on clergy wellness, the prayer life of spiritual leaders. We know that burnout is real. We know the kind of fragmentation, the contentiousness of the country right now, and so we’re focusing in on wellness and prayer. So, we have Jerry Streets with us in September talking about clergy wellness. We have Contemplative Practice for Peacemaking, a 3 part workshop with, Masud ibn Saidullah, Episcopal priest, spiritual director, spiritual teacher, contemplatives, third order Franciscan. He’s gonna talk about reconciliation and how we come together in these really fractured times.

    Angela Gorrell is gonna be back offering a course on helping people to make difficult decisions, helping us be better equipped as leaders to walk with people as they go through really difficult decisions. And then in November, the wonderful Hillary Reining is coming back, one of … one of our dearest friends, Berkeley grad, and she’ll, teach a course on the mystics, praying with the mystics, very much in line with the kind of conversation that we had. How can our prayer lives, benefit from the wisdom and the insights of, mystics throughout Christian history. I’m so excited for that one.

H:    Love it. I want to leave the listeners with two tidbits. The first is if you heard our glorious new theme song and you’re wondering, How can I jam to that on my own time right after this, that is Theodicy Collective, a liturgical jazz band who we’re friends with, who played at the Leaders Way, who played at General Convention, and now they’re playing on every episode of All Will Be Well. 
    And finally, I have a piece of good news from the great wide world we live in that does relate to the golden retriever games. And that is that, Brandon, did you know that the … team USA, the Olympic gymnasts, have a golden retriever on staff? Shoot– What’s his name? Golden retriever Olympics. Beacon. Beacon the therapy dog for team USA. So while we’re here playing our golden retriever games, Beacon’s out there in the big leagues.

B:    I mean, he is really going for gold.

H:    And speaking of team USA, Brandon, guess how many states our listeners come from? States in the US of A.

B:    Wow. How many?

H:    Last time, I think we were in the forties?

B:    No.

H:    When we talked about this in January. And now our listeners come from all 50 states.

B:    No way.

H:    With Connecticut, California, New York, Virginia, and Washington in the lead. Minnesota, Texas, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Massachusetts to follow. Good stuff.

B:    Thank you.

H:    And our world map is really filling out. Top contenders are the UK, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, France, Malta, and South Africa, among others.

B:    How about the US territories? Oh, what a good question. Hang on. Hang on. World … US. Like, are we talking Puerto Rico?

B:    We’re talking Puerto Rico. We’re talking Guam.

H:    Okay. Puerto Rico, the podcast hasn’t made it to Puerto Rico. So call your Puerto Rican friends. Hang on. I’m gonna find Guam on the map. This is harder than it seems. The map is very small.

Unclear. Unclear whether the podcast has made it to Guam, but it has made it to Guatemala.

B:    Alright. Guam, Puerto Rico, you are so welcome to join us.

H:    We’re looking at you.

B:    We’re looking at you.

H:    Mhmm. And well done, Minnesota.

H:    Thanks for listening to the Leaders Way podcast. You can learn more about this episode at berkeleydivinity.yale.edu/podcast. Follow along with us on Instagram at theleadersway.podcast.

B:    And you can rate and review us on your podcast app and be sure to hit follow so you never miss an episode. And if you’d like this episode, please share it with a friend.

H:    Until next time.

B:    Peace be with you.