Brandon: Why don’t we try this week, finding one story of hope, just one, write
it down, say, thank you, Lord, for that vision of hope. And then the next week,
why don’t we try two? And I guarantee before you get going, you’re going to
find hope every day. Welcome to the leader’s way, Yale, the podcast at the
intersection of. spiritual leadership, innovation, and transformation. I’m your
host.
Bishop Andrew Doyle is the ninth Bishop of Texas, and I’d love the way he
describes his spiritual autobiography. He says it this way, met Jesus on
pilgrimage, still walking. Bishop Doyle received his MDiv from Virginia
Theological Seminary after first receiving a fine arts degree. From the
University of North Texas before his election in 2008, Bishop Doyle served for
five years as canon to the ordinary. Today, he coaches new bishops, continues
to lead in the wider church and throughout the global communion.
I think you’ll find in Bishop Doyle, a kind of humility, a real practical wisdom,
courage for leading and saying hard things, but always doing so with great love
and compassion. This conversation felt like we were in a coffee shop as he
spoke with great candor, authenticity, and hope about the future of the church.
So I hope you enjoy this conversation with Bishop Andrew Doyle. Bishop Andy
Doyle, thank you so much for joining us on the Leader’s Way at Yale podcast.
It’s great to have you.
Bishop Andy: Thank you. It’s good to be with you. Thanks for the invitation.
B: One of my favorite ways to begin these conversations is by asking folks to
recollect one of their earliest encounters with the divine, with God. Sometimes
it’s in church. Sometimes it’s in nature. Does something come up for you,
Bishop Doyle?
BA: My father was a priest, and so I spent a lot of time at the church on
Saturdays, you know, so it was a small congregation. He had an assistant, but
for the most part on Saturdays was the day he’d go up there and kind of get
things ready for Sunday morning, and we lived just down the street, literally a
block away, so one day he was working, and at this point the office was part of
the church building itself. And he said, why don’t you go look around and
remember making my way into the dark sanctuary. And even though I can
remember worship times before that, the presence and peacefulness of God in
that place. And so maybe a sense of awe. Uh, along with that. And so that really
has been for me a touch point over the many years of ministry and life to
remember that particular moment.
And it was fun to kind of recall a little bit. And of course, there are many other
moments in that church, but that was very profound one. And it was certainly
one of a feeling of not being alone and God’s presence. Yeah. And so that was a
moment early in life.
B: Thank you for sharing it. And, and then this priestly vocation emerged. Was
it a clear revelation all at once? Did it slowly unfold over time? Can you tell the
story of your vocation and how you were led to ministry?
BA: Truth is that vocation discernment is so different for everybody. And for
me, there was a sense of trying it on from time to time, even from a very early
age, some of that, of course, mimicking what I saw that my father did, but we’ve
got pictures of me with, you know, burying animals in the backyard with a right
to burial service.
So it’s obviously some sense of familiarity, church very much felt like home,
but I think I wrestled with the call because it was hard for me to separate my
father’s vocation and my vocation. It was hard to separate as I grew older, other
priestly vocations in my vocation, and though I had a working through camp
and other youth and young adult programs in the church, that I was constantly
kind of grading against that call.
So it did, I don’t, I would say it didn’t come easy. And then there was a lot of
flip flopping back and forth during my college years. There was a particular
moment on my way to look at grad schools and go to a family reunion with then
my girlfriend Joanne, later my wife, and we were thinking about all of this and
talking about all of this.
We were sitting there for a long time on that plane, on the tarmac, and I just
said, I don’t think I’m supposed to go to grad school in fine arts. I think I’m
supposed to go to seminary. She helped by saying, I think we should go and let
the church make a decision about whether you are called to allow some
conversation outside of ourselves, which was very wise.
That’s what we did, and I was turned down and asked to spend two years doing
something else and doing some therapy around the separation of my dad and me
in terms of the vocational and relational pieces. My father was an alcoholic, and
so there was a lot of work I did during that time period with ACOA, or Adult
Children of Alcoholics, and some other counseling, but later reapplied and
accepted and went on to Virginia Seminary.
And that’s the short version, but it was not a kind of peaceful, oh, I feel called,
let’s just go and everything will work out fine. It wasn’t that at all. And it was,
uh. And I can’t remember who the bishop was who said this, so it was related to
me and it may be complete urban myth, but he began his talk with those
considering vocation by saying the church is going to hurt you now or later.
It’s going to hurt you through this process because you have an expectation that
it’s going to affirm this, and it may not. And you’ll have to deal with what that
means between you and God and the church by the non communal acceptance
of that vocation. And he said, the other thing is when you get into ministry and
you love a great deal, your heart’s going to get broken.
And so by the very act of doing ministry, you will get wounded. Sometimes, of
course, there are the terrible places where the Church hurts, but he was speaking
of those more tender ones, I think.
B: Thank you for sharing your path with such candor. It’s a powerful reminder
for me and maybe those listening, especially those who might be discerning
some kind of call to ministry, that the calling is not always linear, it’s not always
all at once, it’s not always dramatic, and that disappointment actually is
intrinsically part of the process. So, thanks for witnessing that. And I imagine
some of those same truths that you gleaned in your initial discernment process
are also insights in your diocese. What are some of the leadership challenges
that you’re facing, that the Church is facing, and what are the lessons about
leadership that you’re currently learning or leading into and that are really
required to face this moment with courage and grace?
BA: I believe that the Institutions of every type have difficulty with a number of
things, and one of them is the belief that certain things or certain ways will
bring success. I find the church is notorious for this, and will believe a new
prayer book, or a new hymnal, or if we just get the words right, or if everybody
would do morning prayer. Or if you will have these kind of spiritual
experiences, if we figure out the right leadership formula, I mean, I, I just don’t
believe that there are magic pills if there’s any pill.
I think it really is a kind of connection with Neo from the Matrix where Christ
opens our eyes right in that sense of, oh, this, you know, to see the world
through Christ’s eyes, to see it in it’s all of its diversity in it’s kind of amazing
this and also its brokenness and to love all of it. And I think if there were any
one thing, if we did that as leaders, I think we would have an easier time leading
people or guiding people or supporting people.
And the other thing is, I think that we underestimate the power of sameness in
our church, in our culture, and what I mean by that is the church is apt to
continue to repeat its abuse of power and closing people out because it has this
shadow side that just as it welcomes. It closes others out just as it does one
thing.
It says, that’s not, we’re not interested in transformation in this other area. And
for businesses and organizations, what you, what we know from leadership is
actually you need to be open to all of the transformative acts to see in order to
glean the most and a moment of entrepreneurship, we actually need as many
people doing as much work leaning into transformation, learning and sharing
what they’re doing with as many spiritual disciplines. While I would say that the
creed is kind of a bungee jumping tool for the church, I’m clear about my own
faith in that, but I feel also as a bishop, I’m kind of the hub of that and that.
All of the churches and congregations and all their many diversities should be
the spokes going out and then like reflecting back to the whole. So I think too
often we’re like, Oh, okay, so now we have it. And if we can just get everybody
to believe this one thing, whatever the new thing is, that will be okay.
And it’s, it’s apparent on all sides. And I think for us to be successful right now,
we have to say, look, we all believe in Jesus. We’re all heading in this direction
towards the post-apocalyptic table. We’re going to be really clear with one
another that everybody’s welcome at that table, and everybody means
everybody, and not just the ones who agree with me.
And then we’re going to do the hard work of figuring out how to be a
missionary church in this moment. The backlash of that is, well, it’s not all
about growth. Well, it has to be about growth. It has to be about spiritual growth
and numerical growth. Like, maybe it, I get happy when, when one person tells
me this amazing story of hope.
Yay, that is amazing. But it is one person more than it was yesterday. You
know, it’s like. Everybody’s like, well, I don’t want it all, but yeah, well, that’s
just a way of deflecting the work, I think. And I, I, I think we have to lean into
this difficult moment in a new way.
B: I’m fairly certain that this is the first time I’ve heard the creed described as a
bungee jump. And I love that metaphor, um, both in terms of what it means for
the Christian walking through the world and the life of those of us who’ve
chosen ministry as a path of service. It does often feel like a bungee jump. It
does often feel like a lot of vulnerability is required to be of service in the
world, and to be really honest about often how we fall short in meeting the
challenges and the hungers of the world.
And this quest for vulnerability has been a big part of Brene Brown’s writing,
and I know her work has really influenced you and your diocese and your
ministry and, uh, Brene Brown, sociologist and researcher and leadership
expert, maybe one of the most famous Episcopalians on the planet. So, um, can
you share a little bit about how her work has touched your life and the life of
your diocese?
BA: As we have faced a number of different challenges in Texas to do new
work and think in new ways and bind ourselves together, the work of Brene
Brown, especially early on, about the time that it was hitting the TED Talk
circuit. So, I mean, this is all kind of going on at a similar moment. But, of
course, she was involved at the cathedral and certainly her theology or
spirituality comes out of the book of common prayer.
In her own work, she would describe that connection of being open hearted as
part of a gift in, in our particular style of prayer that resonated with her. We
were wrestling with unity and Mission, which was a three-year process that I
had begun to deal with allowing congregations here to marry LGBTQ people to,
at that time, blessings, but we knew marriage was coming. So, you know, we
wanted to do it all at once and kind of get that done. But we were caucusing and
building a group and like moving through this whole process. We all had to
learn how to be vulnerable, that part of the wars, the culture wars, and even the
political wars today in this country around issues, which bring issues into
church in weird ways, was that actually individuals had to learn to be vulnerable
with one another, and that the priests and deacons had to do that first. That it
was going to be very hard to be open and welcoming with folks. Even if we
were going to withhold a more traditional stance on marriage, we were going to
need some sense of what it meant to be vulnerable and leadership. What does it
mean to be in the arena together as clergy?
And so we, we’re fortunate enough at that time to be able to get on her calendar
in such a way to have her team. And we worked for months to bring her in. And
it was really an important moment in the diocese because there was a
congealing. We had almost all of our, it was not required. I just, uh, I don’t do
requirements here. Uh, it’s very sparingly, but I said it was necessary for us to
lean towards each other and I was hoping they would do it. So almost all of the
full time clergy came. I mean, and there was room for about five others around
the country who wanted really, really wanted to come through the training. And
many of those folks went on to be trained and to do training. They’re longer, a
workout of that has flourished in lots of different ways and consulting and
coaching and finding them with business leaders and others doing different
things that started with that work.
We are right now at a point where over two thirds of the clergy have come since
I’ve been the bishop. I’ve been the bishop here for 15 years. So they were
thinking again about a time that maybe we need to do that. And how are we
going to build relationships for the challenging part of the future? And, you
know, I just think that’s an important piece in any form of leadership. I think
you have to have cadres of supporters that gather around you who will tell you
the truth, but also when they don’t agree, can say things honestly, and yet
support you.
Those are disagreement does not mean a lack of support and care for each other.
Those are not equal. I think sometimes we think they are, but I didn’t see that in
the gospel. I didn’t see. I didn’t see Jesus saying, okay, once you get everybody
together, if you, they’ll agree with you, you’re good to go. And I just, I just don’t
see that. So, you know, I think part of what she brings to the Episcopal church is
a reminder of our, our historic breath and willingness to do things together, to
love each other and to support each other in our ministry, especially for clergy
and other leaders. I mean, that’s how she fit into the, uh, longer place and so,
and so did many others. I mean, I’ve, we have a lot of wonderful people in the
Diocese of Texas who have helped us in many different ways.
B: Thank you. And I’m wondering if you can share with us a glimmer of hope,
which I, I presume you’re experiencing all the time, but what’s one recent
experience of hope that’s, that’s animating you these days?
BA: I just recorded a bunch of little, short video casts that we have been
working on to present a story of hope about the church because people ask this
of me a lot, you know, what gives you hope about the church? And that what I
found is that there’s so much that gives me hope. That if I could sit down and
just record it, we’re so anxious.
Anxiety has gone through the roof since COVID for a lot of different reasons,
but our sociologists and folks looking at our culture, especially in the US are
telling us that. And so one of the. The key pieces of finding hope is to remove
that sense of nostalgia and rather kind of find for us something real that’s
happening now. And I think that’s happening in all of our lives. There’s that
great Eucharistic prayer in our tradition about opening our eyes so we can see
God’s hand at the world about us. And that’s a fantastic daily process. And, of
course, you know, rooted in the AA tradition, Al Anon tradition, the sense of
gratitude, right?
So, if you don’t have hope, it’s hard to have gratitude. Finding those stories of
hope help with the gratitude piece. So, I actually think this may be one of the
most important questions you’ve asked during our time together. So, here’s my
answer. From Sunday, I visited congregation, and that congregation was trying
to figure out how to reach families in their neighborhood. Oh, wow. That
sounds like everybody. What they found out was they had a couple of soccer
coaches and cheerleading coaches and some folks in karate or so over the last
two years, they have begun a soccer league of their own, which has over 70 kids
from the neighborhood in it. And, uh, another 50 attending Wednesday night,
uh, karate and parallel cheerleading practice at their church.
Now you think, okay, so that just seems like cheerleading and karate, yes, but
it’s all, it’s not hosting that. So there’s a difference here. It’s not a renting the
space to groups and others are not renting their field to a soccer group. They’re
not renting their space to cheerleaders. What they’re doing is hosting those folks
in their congregation, and they’re running the groups themselves and providing
hospitality and pastoral care by the priest around that. And so people are now
beginning to come to church and to find their way into Bible classes, prayer
classes, confirmation, reception, and baptism.
And so. That’s an amazing thing. And this congregation has one priest, has
about 250 people. So it’s a midsize congregation, a large size for many of our
congregations. But one of the things that I hear so often is, Oh, you know, we
would do so much better if it weren’t for soccer or insert sports name, and here’s
a congregation who said, well, why can’t we do it? And you know what? It’s an
amazing thing. There are no soccer games on Sunday morning. They all start at
one o’clock, right? So if you start your own group and you say, this is when we
can play, other people will show up to play soccer with you.
It’s just a great example of, instead of being weighed down by cultural pressure,
kind of saying, okay, well, what do we have? That is an asset, a gift, a spiritual
gift, right? Think about the kaleidoscope, uh, gifts assessment, right? Okay, so
we have some gifts, like how do we use that and bring that to our mission and
our ministry in a way that doesn’t just bring people on campus but helps them
see who we are.
That’s a great story of hope, and I would challenge everybody listening. Why
don’t we try this week finding one story of hope just one write it down. Say
thank you lord for that vision of hope and then the next week why see if you
find two and I guarantee before you Get going, you’re going to find hope every
day, and it’s going to be little things. It’s going to be somebody who’s nice when
they give you a cup of coffee, or somebody who does a favor for somebody
else, but you get to witness it because they thought it was private, but you saw, I
mean, oh my gosh, so much goodness.
B: Bishop Andy Doyle, thank you so much for your leadership, for your
ministry in the church. Be assured of our prayers, and we hope you can visit us
at Berkeley Divinity School here at Yale sometime real soon.
BA: I’m looking forward to it. I’m looking forward to it.
B: Thank you for listening to the Leader’s Way at Yale podcast. Join us in our
work to heal the healers, care for the caregivers, and support the spiritual
leaders who are transforming our world in compassion, justice, and love online
at berkeleydivinityschool.yale.edu