In this lively conversation, Brandon, Misty, and Whitney talk with The Most Rev’d Sean Rowe, presiding bishop and primate of The Episcopal Church. In this role, he serves as the church’s chief pastor and CEO. Known for his expertise in organizational learning and adaptive change, Rowe is committed to strengthening support for local ministry and mission. This episode offers a wide-ranging conversation, touching upon everything from the role of seminary in spiritual formation, to leadership in a church that is still becoming, to our willingness to engage with God’s imagination.
77: Being Grounded in the Love of God with Sean Rowe
Hosts: Brandon Nappi, Whitney Kimball Coe, Misty Krasawski
Guest: Sean Rowe
Instagram: @theleadersway.podcast berkeleydivinity.yale.edu/podcast
Brandon: Whitney and Misty, I’m so glad you’re here back in the studio at the Leaders Way podcast. It feels complete to have you here. I’ve missed you in those chairs.
Misty: That’s such a nice thing to say.
B: It’s just the truth.
Whitney: This is a cozy space and it’s nice when the table’s full. It feels good.
B: It’s the fall in New England.
M: It’s beautiful.
B: We’re in full Rory Gilmore vibes.
W: Or Meg Ryan.
B: Meg Ryan vibes.
M: You look like that all the time. Just darling and fall-y and chic.
W: Stop it.
B: Ultimate compliment, right?
W: Thank you.
B: Oh my gosh.
W: Thank you. I can hear the cranberries in the background. So good.
B: It’s so good. And there’s blushing happening for those of you listening and not watching. Yeah, I mean, this is the time, you know, as we near Advent and wade into Advent. This is my favorite time of year. When the trees are finally bare, it feels like a kind of contemplative time, doesn’t it?
M: It does because it feels like you need to kind of snuggle in and slow down and get quiet.
W: Yeah. Even though that’s not necessarily what’s happening in seminary. It’s like it’s holding both. We’re honoring the slowing down a little, you know, on the one hand. And then we’re also ramping up towards that final push to papers and all of that. So in the midst of all of that, I do find myself reaching for a deeper spiritual practice, maybe prayer, deeper prayer that will hold me in that tension for sure.
B: Can I ask … I mean, it’s a personal question, but can I ask about kind of what your prayer life looks like now? Obviously prayer, our prayer lives are always evolving and changing based on sort of where we are in life and what season we’re experiencing metaphorically. But would y’all like to share a little bit?
M: Mine has changed so much over the years. I mean, as you can imagine, having like eight children in the house all day long, all the time …
B: I don’t know that the people know this.
M: Well, we’ve said it, but it’s been a while.
B: Okay. Eight other humans.
M: Yeah. Eight other humans. Yeah. Who needed things and needed clothes and wanted food and you know, all of that. And so there were certainly times in my life when it was really difficult to find that time. And I had to really lean into the– you know, I ran across the book by Brother Lawrence. It was called The Practice of the Presence of God. He talks about, you know, being a monk and wanting to spend all his time in these very ethereal ways and in prayer and, you know, in the services, and then realized as difficult as it was to spend time working because part of their life together had to be focused on like … What’s … how is the food going to get prepared if no one does that? Like someone has to pay attention to that. And so in the same way that those monks had to kind of understand that they were with God even in the kitchen, even in whatever, I found it on my bathroom floor and especially the little boy’s bathroom, bathroom floor, that cleaning. I had to know that I was with the Lord and doing that work for God, even though I was doing it for my children. And so I think there developed a sense in my life of sort of a … I’m with God all the time because that was really necessary for me, because it was difficult to find time otherwise.
Now this year in seminary, I think I was saying this to you last week, to you another that because there’s so much busyness and there’s so much that needs to be produced. I have … at the beginning of September, I was looking at the list of things that needed to be done and I was like, You know what– I need to now pull, I think it was Martin Luther who said, “If it’s a busy day, I’m going to pray for an hour. And if it’s a busier day, I’m going to pray for two” or something like that. I’m not that good, but if I don’t have a contemplative time that I stop everything or stop starting to do anything, if that makes sense, refuse to start doing something. If I don’t pick up my Bible and a journal while I’m still in my pajamas, it just won’t happen and I’m going to be a terrible person. And so I really…
B: It’s hard to believe.
M: I’m really leaning into that first 15 and 20 minutes of my day being spent in Scripture and in the Word and just quiet and reminding myself of who God is and who I am. It’s been really important to me.
B: That’s right. What about you Whitney?
W: Yeah. Well, of course, my prayer life has had its ups and downs over my lifetime. Years ago, I was involved in contemplative prayer and that worked really well for me to do a 20 minute sit at noon every day. So it was very structured and I felt the fruits of that in a kind of groundedness. But then of course, life sometimes intervenes and disrupts that structure. And now something I’ve learned also about myself in seminary is that I like to move. I’m a person always moving, like physically in my body. And that can also be used for prayer, that movement. And so I hike every day. You know this Misty.
M: I do!
W: Berkeley Seminary is right in East Rock here in New Haven and East Rock is a state park that has a mountain that has some beautiful trails and in all weather. You’ll find me out there once a day hiking and moving my body. I use that time to think through sermons, to think through relationships, to be open and be with myself and be contemplative. And it is my joy. And if I don’t do it, similar to what you were saying, then I notice that I feel somehow dysregulated or less grounded, less able to respond in a thoughtful way to things that go awry or changes that might happen. It seems like with every stage of our lives, figuring out what is going to be our relationship to God through prayer.
What about you Brandon? Yeah. Would you tell us about your prayer life? I mean, gosh, you ran contemplative retreats for years and still do, I guess.
B: Well, I don’t as often as I’d like to, but it’s still a part of my life and yet daily silence has for 20 years now been kind of the anchor for me. Silence for me looks either like Zen meditation, so a breath practice that also gives way to centering prayer. So in Zen practice, we practice attention, present moment awareness for me with the anchor of the breath, right? By bringing focus to the breath, we align our whole lives to the present moment, which of course is the only moment we can ever find ourselves, the only moment we can ever find our God and find the people we love, right? And so the first part of my prayer every day is just breath work and the practice of awareness. But then I’ll transition to centering prayer where I move from pure attention to intention. My intention in centering prayer is just to, best I can, surrender my life to God and to the work of the Holy Spirit. And so that’s usually about 20 minutes, how I start my day. I’m an early riser usually by 4:30 or 5. And Zen centering prayer and coffee, my coffee that my beloved makes from every day. The coffee helps. Sort of my morning ritual.
Well, in fact, our guest today, the Most Reverend Sean Rowe, talks about his centering prayer practice. So this is right on point. Let me tell you a little bit about our guest. We’re so honored to have the presiding bishop in the Episcopal church in the vernacular. This would be the lead bishop here in the Episcopal church, here in the United States. He was elected presiding bishop of the Episcopal church in June of 2024. In this role, he serves as the church’s chief pastor and CEO. He’s known for his expertise in organizational learning and adaptive change. And he’s committed to strengthening support for local ministry and mission. He was first ordained bishop of the Episcopal diocese of Northwestern Pennsylvania in 2007 after serving as rector of St. John’s church in Franklin, Pennsylvania for seven years. For four years, he served as bishop provisional of the Episcopal diocese of Bethlehem and from 2019 to 2024, he led a partnership between the Episcopal diocese of Northwestern Pennsylvania and Western New York. He holds a bachelor’s degree in history from Grove City College, a master’s of divinity from Virginia Theological Seminary, and a doctorate in organizational leadership from Gannon University. So, we’re so thankful to have our presiding bishop with us today.
W: You know, Bishop Rowe also received an honorary doctorate from Berkeley Divinity School in 2024.
B: Oh, that’s right. Yeah, that’s right.
M: We are so glad to have him with us today. So we hope you too will enjoy the conversation.
B: Welcome to the Leaders Way podcast, a show for people who are not ready to give up on the world. We convene sacred conversations with luminaries, scholars, and spiritual leaders who explore the creative vision needed to lead change in our aching world. I’m Dr. Brandon Nappi, lecturer at Yale Divinity School and executive director of the Office of Transforming Leaders at Berkeley Divinity School at Yale. I’m so glad you’re here.
Bishop Sean Rowe, welcome to the Leaders Way podcast. We’re so glad you’re here.
Bishop Sean: Thank you. I’m glad I can be.
B: You’ve been such a friend to Berkeley and you’re leading in this moment of opportunity. We can say euphemistically in this moment of heart-stretching, heartache in our world and fragmentation. And we’re just so thankful for your leadership. So thank you for being here with us. We have our wonderful seminarian co-hosts, Misty and Whitney, with us today. And we’re really looking forward to the conversation.
S: Thanks for having me.
M: Bishop Sean, we are really thrilled to have you here. And one of the things that we always like to do is to learn a little bit more about you. And we’re especially interested in stories of calling and vocation. And so we wondered if you would share with us a little bit about what that looked like for you, that process of knowing that you were called and then how that’s evolved over these years to have you in the position you’re in now.
S: Thanks for that question. I always enjoy talking about the spiritual journey and hearing that with other people as well. You know, in terms of my own journey, it’s … I’m one of those people that has been called for I would say most of my life. I knew this was somewhere that I would end up. And I’ve always been interested in talking about the things that people aren’t supposed to talk about, which are religion and politics. And really up until recently when the political environmenthas just gotten so divisive, I’ve been kind of a political jockey. Love presidential election years, love politics and love the church.
So I was the kid that came up in the church in the days when youth groups were what people wish they were now or something. You know, people were talking about the good old days of the 80s and 90s youth group. I mean, that’s why I’m here, honestly. Great youth ministry, great camping ministries from back in the day. I loved it. It ate it up. And when I went to college, I really thought … I really was struggling about the with the whole issue of call. What was I supposed to do? And politics was something –I really thought I’m going to maybe go to law school and go into politics. And then I thought, no, I just can’t. I cannot run from this call to ordained ministry. And of course, there’s no politics in the church. So I really miss it. Great. I mean, so I got the … I get the best of both worlds. But it’s … it’s sort of these things that have just constantly been with me, this sense that this is the place that I was supposed to serve. And I had a lot of great mentors along the way. But I chalk it up to just the good old fashioned basics. Great Sunday school teachers, great youth groups, really. And just people who loved me and to be … to love a God who I’ve never been afraid of. And I think that’s been a real gift.
M: OK, that’s such an amazing phrase. Did you have someone in your life who kind of emulated that for you?
S: I was around pastors and good Sunday school teachers who really taught me about how God loves us. And so I … this whole this whole fear of hell or fear of being punished and all this sort of thing, that’s just not ever really been part of my journey in any real significant way.
W: That’s really a blessing. I feel like that mirrors a little bit of my own story, too. I’m a third year M.Div student, now a candidate for ordination. And when I think about how I got here, it does also start with like youth group in the 90s and like a ping pong table and also air hockey probably and also really incredible and wise teachers who taught about the love of God. And aren’t we lucky that that was our … that was our origin story.
I wanted to build a little bit on this sort of opening, this introduction to you and your formation and ask you to talk a bit about spiritual formation in seminary because Misty and I are of course in the midst of it right now here at Berkeley. It’s a special place. It’s a residential program, one of the few residential programs in the country. And we’re having a –what feels like kind of a singular experience and an important one at that. But when you think about the churches, it is now the churches, it will be in the future and seminaries and the role that they play and maybe you’re drawing upon your own experience, what comes to mind for you about the importance of seminaries?
S: Well seminaries are obviously a critical piece of formation and in what we do, and I think they’ll always be a part of the church and the way that we form people even if the role changes. I mean, it looks like now only about a third of the people who are being ordained on an annual basis are affiliated with one of our seminaries. So that’s a big change from even 20 years ago when it was around 70%. So certainly that much of it has changed. I think you have a tremendous opportunity where you are, being part of Yale Divinity School, having Berkeley be part of that. I think Andrew McGowan has just done tremendous work with Berkeley. It’s situated in the context of the Divinity School and in the context of the wider Yale community that you’ve got a real opportunity there. Certainly my residential formation was critical for me. It was not all unicorns and rainbows throughout.
M: Imagine.
S: Right. I had the, some would say the kind of a classical seminary experience where a lot of what I thought had to be deconstructed and put back together. I felt like at one point it was like a car that had been entirely taken apart and all the parts were just kind of laying in the parking lot. It was not a car that could be driven. And I’m so bad mechanically that I had to put things back together is really bad. I don’t even know why I’m using that analogy right now. That may say something about the level of struggle that those three years were for me. I enjoyed it. I grew spiritually, but it was a lot of work because I came knowing a lot more than I did when I left.
I was just one of those. I came in right out of college, went right to seminary and spent my whole life in the church. So I was very challenged by it, but it taught me the practices that I still use today. Saying the office; I can still sing the canticles– not well, but that’s what’s going on in my head. So knowing that Wednesday morning comes with Psalm 119 and then it goes on forever is just somewhat comforting.
W: Oh, we did that this morning.
S: I know. Yeah, right. It’s long. It’s like Psalm 119 never ends. Well, the seminary was an important part and I think it will continue to play an important part in formation. It’s something about being in community and struggling with faith and learning about faith in community with others. I think that’s something that’s invaluable. I’m tremendously grateful for the opportunity to have done it.
B: Bishop Sean, there’s been so much change over the last number of generations in America, the Episcopal Church, Episcopal churches, no longer the church of the establishment in such a way. And the sense of there being a Christian culture that sort of moves as a monolith is not nearly the case anymore. And I wonder, how do you see the Episcopal Church changing? What’s the opportunity to leverage and how do we need to lead differently in this post-Christendom moment?
S: It’s all new for us as an Episcopal Church. We’re learning new skills, as it were, and new ways of being in the world because the fact is we’ve grown with the population. That’s basically how we’ve done it. I know it’s kind of a joke. We joke about that. We grow by birth rate. But if you look at that, that pretty much is how it has gone for us. So the idea that we’re going to be reaching new people, people who are kind of outside of our “circle” or who aren’t somehow affiliated with us in some way, that’s all new. So the idea that we’re recovering something ancient as an Episcopal Church in that way, it’s really learning … new. So we’re going from a place of being a part of the establishment to a place of being kind of set to the side.
And this is why I keep talking about, and my new favorite word is “winsome,” but a “winsome and compelling gospel message” that counters the prevailing narrative of the day and frankly counters the prevailing narrative of what people think of when they hear the word “Christian.” So this is new for us. And I think that’s what sometimes gets lost. We know it’s hard and we’re able to reach new segments of the population in fits and starts, but that’s because it’s all new and we’re learning to navigate it. But I wonder with the kind of history that we have, the rootedness in tradition, the sacramental theology, all of it together, our way of thinking just as Anglicans, I wonder if this isn’t really our moment. That we could in fact capture the spiritual imagination of a world that’s clearly yearning for something more than what’s being offered.
B: You know, I was speaking recently with a relative of mine, I won’t disclose which, but who grew up Roman Catholic and is currently attending more of an evangelical church and each of those traditions have their own beauty. But this person said to me not so recently, “Gosh, I wonder if there’s something in between. Is there a middle path between these traditions and stuff?” You know, there’s one very anecdotal example of this hunger sort of bubbling up. Can we find something that’s rooted but adaptive, that’s flexible and yet has an anchor in tradition? And I mean, this is the Anglican and Episcopal charism within the Christian community to hold both of those things so beautifully together. And I think you’re right.
S: But we’re in our own way. We have that tradition, right? It’s there, but we’re in our way and it’s hidden. I mean, how many people, if we had a dollar for every person that’s probably told each of us, “I didn’t even know the Episcopal Church, I didn’t know something like this was here?!” we could fund our mission. And that’s not a good thing. I mean, we sort of laugh about it “We’re the best kept secret in American Christianity,” but come on. How is it that we’re hidden? So this thing that people I think are yearning for, which is exactly what you just described and what your relative was saying he or she or they wanted, I think exists. I used to joke around with Joan Schidaster, who’s Benedictine, theologian, monastic, her community’s in Erie. I just used to say, “Joan, this church that you talk about, that you dream about, exists.” And it does. And that’s something I think we have to offer the world. We just haven’t quite figured out how to do it. And I’m hoping that we can crack that knot in the next few years.
M: Do you have any ideas about how that might be done? I think that we perhaps have such a sensitivity to not coming off as, dare I say, evangelical. I need a different word for that. But we don’t want to be pressing into people or pushing people.
B: Colonial.
M: That’s a word one could use. So if we don’t want to do that, how do we get the word out about this? I know you don’t have all of those answers, but I know you’ve thought about this a lot.
S: We could talk about it differently. I went to an evangelical college. I know that world very well. I get it. I get it. I mean, the four spiritual laws. All of that kind of way of talking about spirituality, I get. Well, we have a particular vocabulary and a way that I think is that can be winsome and compelling. And I think the way that we do it is, I think, for us to begin to think strategically, and this is critical, about who we’re talking to and what we’re trying to say. How can we talk about Jesus and the message, particularly the Beatitudes, the Sermon on the Mount, right? The very core of what Jesus is talking about in a way that’s compelling to the world. And I think it is … we can raise our profile. I mean, there’s no reason we aren’t advertising. There’s no reason we aren’t talking about at a pretty big level at what we’re doing. The issue then, though, and I think this is the critical piece is that you have to be able to then deliver on it. And there’s where there’s where the rubber meets the road. You know, I’ve got to be able to go into an Episcopal Church and count on the fact that people there have thought about what we’re going to do and that there’s a liturgy that has some coherence and that the sermon hasn’t been written on the back of an envelope on Saturday night. Right. I mean, that there’s something, there’s something compelling there for me, which it would deliver on the experience. And we love to brag about our liturgy and how wonderful it is. And often it’s not, right? It’s often not delivered in a way… it’s not often embodied in a way that is compelling.
So I think if we could turn our attention to a narrative that works and then toward a way of embodying what we say, particularly in our liturgy and our preaching, it could be pretty powerful. But you’re not going to hear somebody in a megachurch– you’re not going to hear the pastor get up there and wing it. Right. They’re just there. That’s not going to happen. It’s not going to be for the most part poorly done. And so I think that’s part of his way to take responsibility for the kind of excellence we bring to the table as well.
W: I appreciate what you’re saying about narrative. And it makes me think about storytelling and how we tell the story of who we are and how we belong to one another and to God. And I wonder if you could tell a story kind of off the cuff right now, about an experience you’ve had in an Episcopal space or an Anglican communion space where you felt like the story is being told. So a story within a story. Is there an example of something you’ve experienced recently where you’re just like, this is it?
S: I was just talking to–I was in the in the diocese of the Great Lakes, which is a newly formed diocese from two dioceses in Michigan that that had a conversation with each other. And I was talking to a woman afterward who was saying that as they had conversations these two dioceses about whether they should come together, whether they should join their mission or their mission efforts together, how opposed she was to that because she liked her diocese. She liked the way that it was done and she liked her church and the way that things were done and really didn’t want it to change. And she said, though, a light bulb went off in her head when she realized that this was going to be no longer about her, but about her grandchildren, about a future generation, that God had something in mind for a future. And that she said, You know, it just crossed my mind that maybe what I want isn’t as important as what might be needed for the future. Now, she didn’t explicitly say the name Jesus, but what she was talking about is the missional capacity of the church and how it’s important to look ahead. And I found that compelling. It’s a kind of conversion, right? If it’s … it’s an insight that leads to a willingness to let go of something that we hold dear for the sake of something larger. And that’s what she was talking about. She wanted her grandchildren to have the kind of experience and relationship to the church, which is in my mind, or at least I read somewhere sacramentally that the church is the risen body of Christ in the world. She wants her grandchildren to have that same experience as she did. She didn’t use those words, but she conveyed that meaning. I found it very, it was it was very moving to hear.
B: I mean, change is so difficult. And even though, you know, we’ve had a couple thousand years of following Jesus who died and was resurrected, change still is really difficult for us. Right. I mean, in one way, you would think that we would be the experts in change, right? Being an apprentice at the footsteps of Jesus. But it’s not the case, right? I mean, this is a moment of profound change. And I wonder as you look out into the church and its challenges and you look out into the world and its formidable challenges, what are the key leadership skills that you’re looking for in your priests, in your fellow bishops that are necessary to meet these with courage and boldness?
S: I don’t want to be cliche. I think when it comes to change, it’s the loss that people tend to resist. And I, you know, we all heard that it is not the change, it’s the loss. But when you’re talking about adaptive work and the kind of adaptive change that we’re engaging in, which is the change that requires us to learn new skills and behaviors and then the change, the way particularly the ways in which we behave and act, you’re talking about … adaptive change is really the distribution of loss. So a lot of what we’re dealing with, and a lot of one of the emotions that I see out in the church a lot is grief, just grief about what’s being lost. And I think the key is, can we acknowledge and work with that grief, because it’s real. And it needs to be attended to and tended to and not allow that grief to stand in the way of what’s in the future. Because a lot of what happens with what’s kind of grief is that we can’t imagine a future. It’s not that we’re stuck in a past. It’s that we can’t imagine a future.
So I think the things that I look for in leadership are people who are willing to engage in imagination and imagine a future and what that takes is being grounded in spiritual faith, first and foremost. Without the spiritual grounding, without being able to say our prayers and to understand how critical is to be in a relationship with God and with each other. The rest of it doesn’t matter. You have to be spiritually grounded. So that to me is a prerequisite, a relationship with God that’s deep and that is steadfast. And all of our spiritual lives have a left turn in them. So we have … we were always ready for those and those moments that are dry, but being spiritually grounded. I think the other thing that I see, particularly for bishops, is the willingness to be teachable. To be open to learning. Absolutely critical. I can tell you the bishops are going to have– the new bishops and new clergy for that matter who are going to have issues in their ministry by … just about how open they are to learning. Learning new skills, hearing different points of view, working with people around them, being open to feedback.
And finally, then, the ability to engage God’s imagination because we’re inundated with the imagination of Pharaoh, which is … which is an imagination that always calls us back to Egypt, that always calls us to an old way. Israelites get caught up in that very early on. The Golden Calf is a prime example of Pharaoh’s imagination. I mean, all the bigger they can think of is a Golden Calf. I mean, if you look at it in context, it kind of makes sense, but it’s pretty small thinking. God was none too happy about it either, but they recovered. They got on with it and did something–did something beautiful and built a tabernacle later. But I think the openness to God’s imagination, particularly when the imagination of Pharaoh is what’s prevailing.
B: As you know, in the last few years, we’ve launched here at Berkeley the Office of Transforming Leaders to support emerging leaders and clergy at every stage. And in the Leaders Way program, folks come from around the world, from around the communion to think about innovation and ministry. And one of the really powerful confessional moments in the group in the earliest days is that in the overwhelm and the stress and in the in the pull to be of service to God’s people, folks’ spiritual lives have really eroded. It’s the first thing that gets abandoned when folks get busy. So I’m so glad you’re naming this as sort of key to meeting all these external demands.
S: It is really the piece that is most critical is groundedness, because the world does not need–we don’t need any more opinions. We don’t need any more outrage. We don’t need any more political hacks. What we need are people who are grounded in the love of God and can speak from that place. And that is going to–that’s most important. And and all of us, I mean, if you’ve been a clergy person or, you know, this has been part of your vocation, you’ve lost your way once or twice. I mean, that’s part of it. That’s part of the juris, part of the spiritual journey. But holding on to that is just this holding on to the thread, which is the relationship with God is. The– if nothing else, being grounded there is most important.
M: I really appreciate that so much. It seems like such … the most important thing. We definitely would echo that here for sure. I wonder then if you would talk a little bit about what you find most helpful in your own spiritual practices and what that looks like for you on a daily basis.
S: Attentiveness to the–again, attentiveness of spiritual life. Number one, for me, it’s in the last decade or so, it’s been focusing more and more of my time on centering prayer, on silence. There was a time when it if I saw if somebody said we’re going to sit in front of a candle in silence, I would run. But this idea that we can be silent and seek God in the sun. So that’s–and I’ve really been reconnecting to the mystics, which is something entirely different for me, too. I used to think they were all heretics– mainly because they are. But this is—they’re grounded heretics is how I like to think of many of them. But reconnecting with the mystical tradition, the Christian tradition and seeing how people have experienced God and the voice of God in their life and the ways in which that has motivated them to see the world around them differently. That’s what my practice has been centered around these days is the reading of scripture, reconnecting with the mystics, but a lot of time now in silence. And so–and that’s huge for me, who’s gone from this really kind of extroverted prayers and a time when I wouldn’t have given you a nickel for Thomas Merton to having a transformational experience by reading Merton and others.
W: I wonder if I could widen the lens a little bit. And I mean, prayer certainly has something to say to this. We were talking about how the Episcopal Church is kind of a well-kept secret. And at the same time, the Anglican Communion has been in the news in the last few weeks for a number of reasons. I mean, the historic appointment of the new Archbishop of Canterbury, the first woman to head the Anglican Communion. And then also what has been described as somewhat of a schism within the Anglican Communion, a number of bishops pulling away due to a number of ecclesial issues and doctrinal issues, perhaps. But I wonder how you might speak to the notion of communion, maybe what our groundedness as leaders has to do with how we participate in communion and how you’re thinking about just the news of the day.
S: Well, first, the good news of the day. I think the appointment of the new Archbishop of Canterbury is nothing short of brilliant. I think that’s pretty good. I think that what I have to say is that I’m surprised that the Crown Nominating Committee had the courage to go this direction. I think it’s one of the best things I’ve heard in a long time. I think we’re going to have a highly qualified, centered person as the Archbishop of Canterbury. I think there’s few people in history that have been more qualified to serve in the role. I look forward to working with her. I think she’s going to bring a new energy and a different vision. And we see that already in the things that she’s saying and doing. And I just can’t wait to see how all that unfolds. So that’s first and foremost for me. I want to just– if I could jump up and down and dance and not embarrass everybody, I would. It’s just really exciting.
I mean, in terms of the GAFCON statement, I mean, I don’t … I don’t, you know, what is … what does … there’s not a whole lot to say about that. I mean, you’ve got a group of people who’ve declared themselves the Anglican Communion. I mean, I don’t even know what that means. I don’t know how you can just come out and declare yourself … what it looks like. So people might have gotten a little out over their skis on this one with this kind of an announcement. We’ll see what happens.
I think being in communion requires us to bear with one another. It’s always sad when people decide they’re going to walk apart. But I mean, I … declaring you’re the Anglican Communion, I just don’t even know. I don’t–it doesn’t actually make any sense to me. So it’s hard for me to comment on. I think we’re going to have to start to think, though, but what is this communion now? What is this communion in the 21st century? I think the new archbishop is going to help us think about this. We think about in post-colonial ways, in ways without the empire. What is it? It’s a series of relationships. The Orthodox call it that, they talk about autocephaly, which is great– which I’m only saying because I like to say the word. Like it’s a great concept. I mean, of … again, it’s another way of talking about communion, about being in a relationship. It’s not like they model it particularly well, either. I mean, you know, like most Christian groups have got their own disagreements. But what I’m saying is how do we … how do we start living together differently and stop it with this? I’m the communion. No, I’m the communion. I’m the communion. What is that? I don’t know. It’s … it just it feels anti-gospel to me to talk that way.
And so I don’t know exactly what’s going on. It comes out of hurt. It comes out of fear. It comes out of broken relationships. But I think there are other ways to do it. And I’m hoping people can sort of step back from that ledge and we can figure out how to be in relationship with each other. That said, I’m not particularly interested in compromising our direction as a church to do it. But I think we’ve set course. We’re going to stay on that course. We’re not going to allow people to be marginalized just because others are … think that’s a good idea. We’re not going down that road. So I think it’s just about trying to figure out, can we get back to the dialogue table? But I’m also kind of done being jerked around that way. So I think there’s other ways if we’re going to … if we’re going to practice Christian community, this isn’t the way to do it. So I’m kind of, I think it’s time for us to think a little differently about how we participate in those structures as well.
W: Just to … just a quick follow up on that. I mean, when I came to Berkeley, I was an Episcopalian. I’m an Episcopalian. I didn’t understand that I was part of a broader Anglican community. And I’ll just be honest. Yeah, it’s been part of the beauty of this experience at Berkeley to be exposed to a recognition that there’s a whole world out there of Anglicans and people who are using a prayer book. And so I’ve been thinking a lot about communion and how it does matter. It does mean something and it is something that we’re oriented toward. So even though some may declare that they are the communion or that there is some sort of perhaps schism here in this in this moment, I wonder if you could speak just a little bit more toward why it is important that we’re part of this global group of followers and people worshiping together in a shared tradition.
S: I mean, the church is the risen body of Christ in the world. So it’s … we’re not … it’s not just– it’s not just us. We’re not the church. That’s how we understand it. And church is about, and the body of Christ is about relationships, and communion is fundamentally about relationships–without which you don’t have a church. You don’t–you don’t really have a body without the relationships within it. And I think that’s why I find it instructive to look at how the Orthodox have organized and how we have over time and the meaning in the way in which we’ve manifested the love of God and Christ through that body and through that community. So if you read the work of the look at the ecclesiology of somebody like John’s Izulu’s and others, other Orthodox theologians, I think it is more … it parallels more kind of the work and the endeavor that we have as Anglicans.
I think far more closely than, say, the more Western Roman Catholic understanding of communion. So I would dig deeply into the relationships which make up communion and the web of relationships that that form that as the as the basis and the gift that that is to us, which can get lost when people step out of relationship and then make statements like “We’re the Anglican communion” or whatever on the archbishop or … we’ve lost. “We don’t believe in the instruments of communion” or what … people start that that way. That kind of discourse breaks down the relationships, which are the which are the critical piece.
B: Well, as long as we’re talking about tender and thorny topics, I thought we’d just take us to A.I. I mean, so much of leadership today is about holding these immense paradoxes. And I can’t think of any greater paradox practically in the world right now than A.I. with so much promise and so much fear swirling around this. And I wonder how you’re thinking about A.I. these days in your own ministry personally, but also, you know, what encouragement are you giving to other bishops and priests and leaders across the Episcopal Church? These moments feel uncharted. And yet the development of A.I. is outpacing our ability to even reflect on the ethical parameters. Right. So help. Help.
S: I don’t know how much help I can offer. Just some perspective that I have. Because you’re right. I mean, it is … it’s wild out there in the world of of A.I. I mean, there’s no doubt that technology and I– critical thing for us to be discussing helpful to churches and other organizations. Certainly. We’ve got a task force working on it with people that are much smarter than I am. Particularly the Bishop of Rhode Island, Knisley, this is his– one of his sweet spots.
B: A great friend of ours.
S: Yeah, I know he is. And … but he’s written that the primary concern for A.I. is pastoral. And I think he’s right about that, that A.I. bots and other machine models have ability to use language in a way that makes human beings inclined to think that they’re building relationships with them. But it’s because we’re hardwired to form relationships. But when we think we’re falling into a trap and chatting with a machine as next as you know, chatting with a large language model is equivalent to having a relationship—it’s not the equivalent of having a relationship with a sentient being. So this is … this is what we’re up against. And so I think it’s important for us to continue to think about the ways in which it helps us, but also in the ways in which … these are not people. And so our relationships are with human beings.
And so we need to think about how we promote A.I. literacy, but more fundamentally, that people are taking pastoral concerns there. And how do we build community using it? I think in many ways, though, I think I can be helpful to us. I hear people saying, Oh, you know, what about people going to use A.I. to write their sermons? Well, given some of the sermons I’ve heard, I’d welcome AI… No, I’m just kidding. On the serious side, I think I think they can help us. I think I think it could also be … it could also help us. It can supplement. But what a changing field. And I only know enough about A.I. to be dangerous at this point. But we’re all working on it and we’ll see how it unfolds. But I’ll be interested to hear some of the guests you have that actually know what they’re talking about have to say about this.
W: Yeah, I think we’re all learning. Right. And I’m glad that we have a task force that’s thinking about these things. And also, hopefully we’re also thinking about the environmental impacts of A.I. And particularly, you know, I was thinking about, you know, the rural parishes in my life, the rural communities in my life who have data centers in their backyard that are taking the resources from them. So the good aspects of A.I. are sometimes hard to discover when it’s hard to flush your toilet, which is just an honest … honest assessment. So hopefully environment is also up there in terms of how we’re thinking about stewarding our creation and resources.
S: It’s a really good insight.
M: I wonder if I can take you back a little bit. You were talking earlier about community and how important that is. And also, we talked earlier about the fact that Yale is one of the only the residential seminaries–here at Berkeley. I wonder if you had a chance to go back to your own seminarian days. What would you pay more attention to or spend more time doing, given what you know now?
S: I would have spent more time learning spiritual practices. I would have spent much more time delving into the practical spiritual traditions of the church. I mean, I wouldn’t have given you a nickel for anything practical then. But I would have spent … I would have spent much, much, much more time cultivating my own spiritual life than I did in that environment. It’s not that I didn’t. It’s that I … that’s what I … that’s where I would focus. I would have paid a lot more attention to my spiritual life and developing it and would have got a better head start on it because that’s what’s going to matter.
M: Yeah, I think we all are sensing this. And there’s been a lot of conversation among us personally lately about how we’re feeling this tension of knowing that we need to and should be spending more time paying attention to that and also the literal reality of the amount of work that we have to do, making that sometimes feel impossible.
S: Oh, and it’s always a balance and you can never you can never quite get it right. I think all you can do is integrate the two as best you can and not even worry about balance. I will tell you that I’ve in my entire ordained life of ministry, no one’s asked me about my GPA at seminary. I think you ought to work really hard and do the best you can and please, with apologies to the dean. I think working on those papers and getting that stuff done is good. And there has to be there has to be integration in there. Yeah.
W: Should we ask him about his GPA? Yeah.
S: It’s nothing to write home about.
B: I love that you use that word integration. It was the one that I was just about to say. And then you said it. And that’s what we’re thinking a lot about at Berkeley right now. Conversations at the level of leadership and the Annand program, which is a wonderful endowed program for spiritual formation that’s seen a lot of growth in the last number of years. But we’ve sensed a hunger. So I want you as students to know that we’re really listening to this, especially around this question of spiritual practices. Bishop Sean, I was the centering prayer teacher for many years and a retreat leader for most of my ministry. And so it brings me great joy to hear that this is so central in your life. And I think there’s still an opportunity for us to work toward a better balance, a better integration at Yale. This is always going to be a place for academic excellence and scholarship of the highest order. And I think there’s also an opportunity to be a place of spiritual practice of the highest order and the greatest commitment and depth as well. And I don’t know that we’ve got that balance quite right yet. But I love that we’re talking about this because it’s the only way we move the needle on it.
S: Me too. I’m glad that’s a focus because I think both are important. It’s Yale. Of course, academics are important. And so is that integrate those the spirit, the life integration of the spiritual life.
B: I’m curious about what encouragement would you have to someone who’s maybe listening? We know that the podcast is a place that’s sort of a front door to Berkeley for people who were discerning even for folks who are even before the discernment process. They’re wondering, Is seminary for me? Could I be called? They’re wrestling. What encouragement and invitation do you want to make to that perspective seminarian?
S: Go for it. Take the leap. You can’t run from a call forever. If it’s … if it’s nagging at you and you think, Gosh, this is something I should do. I don’t know what’s the … you probably don’t have that much to lose by trying, by taking that step and seeing what God will reveal to you. I think the seminary is often a place of deep discernment and grounding. It’s a time of struggle too, I mean–it’s both. I mean, you get to get the whole, the whole piece there. But I would encourage people to take the leap is what I would say and stay grounded as you do it. For me, it was … it was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done, and also one of the most formative and rewarding.
B: I also wonder about your encouragement to seminarians. You know, I have the great honor of walking with so many of our wonderful students. And I think by and large, you are loving the experience, feeling grateful for the experience, and especially around the middle year, the second of the third year, there’s a kind of weariness that I sense. And so I don’t want to put any questions into the mouths of our seminarians next to me. But I wonder, you know, do you have encouragement for weary seminarians?
S: Yeah, just stay the course. I mean, we’ve all been through that, when you get to that middle year and it’s just … it can get to be a slog. I think I only packed up my seminary dorm room twice in the time that I was– hit the road and go do something else. I mean, it’s part of the journey. I would say, take a deep breath, step back, double down on your spiritual life and keep the main thing the main thing. Here is the thing: you get through it. You get to the other side. Ordination processes come to an end. They’re a pain, but they come to an end. You either pass all your GOEs or you don’t. I didn’t. I’m the person, you know, I end up as the presiding bishop. I said, it’s OK. You don’t have to pass all of them.
M: Thank you for saying that!
S: You don’t! All the things that appear larger than life at a certain point really aren’t. And you can’t, you– there’s no way to have that perspective in the midst of it. So let someone who’s lived it say, Stay the course, take a deep breath and try to enjoy what you’re doing. And understand this, that this is a part of the journey, and take it as it comes to you and try to take it as an opportunity for spiritual growth. And I don’t say that lightly. I remember what it was like. I’m having the feelings right now. I mean, I remember sitting for the exams and doing all of that. I’m not acting like, Oh, it’s all great. It’s not. But stay centered and stay the course. Keep the main thing the main thing.
W: Thank you. I’m going to call my bishop and say Presiding Bishop Rowe said, I don’t have to pass my G.O.E’s.
S: Because your bishop probably didn’t either. That’s the thing. And I then I –then I turned around and read them years later and had it. So I mean, like I– I’ve been on both sides of that void.
M: That’s all good. You know, in thinking again about some things we’ve talked about earlier about the difficulties that we face and the difficulties we face as the kind of best-kept-secret Episcopal Church. I’m just wondering about where you find hope in that and what are some of your hopes for the Episcopal Church in particular in these next upcoming years and what might we need to do and think about and work toward and develop to get there.
S: I mean, my hope is that we can marshal our resources in such a way that we can take advantage of the full breadth of Christian spirituality, our tradition to become an effective witness to the gospel and that the way in which we do that is we have a winsome and compelling message that people identify with the Episcopal Church. Explicitly. That there’s an identification between what we’re saying and what the Episcopal Church is and who we are and what we represent. That people make an actual one to one correlation between this church and what’s being said in the world. I think we can do that.
And then we can, I believe, be a force for change in the world. Like we can be a legitimate voice at the table. And I think that is powerful, and we’re positioned–and the world is positioned, particularly the American culture now, is positioned to hear it. I think we have something that needs to be–we need to speak into that, and we can. That’s my fondest hope with the goal of reaching more people for the gospel of Jesus Christ, which I believe to be a matter of life and death. I really, I believe with all my heart that it really is a matter of life and death for us.
B: Bishop Sean, we have a segment on the Leaders Way podcast called Holy Cow that expresses people’s astonishment when they learn new and unexpected things about our guests. And so these are five questions that we often ask our guests because, let’s be honest, the people want to know. And Whitney, I wonder if you would share.
S: Well they don’t, but they’re about to.
M: They will.
W: I love this first question. Bishop Sean, what do people most misunderstand about you or what you do?
S: I think a lot of people think like I’m an organizational wonk only and that, you know, like I’m into the organizations and like, you know, I’m into like structure charts in my basement or something. But really, I’m interested in, deeply, in the gospel and evangelism and the work of the church in the world. And I think that sometimes that pastoral side gets lost in my all my talking about adaptive leadership and change.
M: That is great. OK, here’s a fun one. What’s your go-to comfort food?
S: Oh, pizza, hands down. And I’ve been all in New Haven spots, too. That’s like– it’s another excuse to come there.
B: Favorite toppings?
S: Oh, jalapenos.
B: Oh, wow. I didn’t see that coming.
S: And back in the day before I was a vegetarian, which I haven’t for like a decade, it was anchovies. I know, I know. But I love anchovies on pizza.
M: OK, wow. Yeah.
S: I’m going back to it.
B: What’s a bad habit that you’re willing to share?
S: I have a lot of bad … Diet Coke. I mean, it’s … it’s bad. It really is. It’s bad. Like I just want—it’s the first thing I’m going to do when I get off this podcast.
B: The job is that demanding.
S: It’s that demanding. I mean, but it’s like … it’s my … it’s this … Yeah, it’s my bad habit.
W: All right. What life lesson are you still learning?
S: Patience. Patience. It’s a fruit of the spirit. That’s the problem with it. It’s not … it’s not a gift of the spirit that you can pray for and receive. It’s a fruit of the spirit, which you have to learn and manifest. So it’s what … it got put in the wrong list, in my opinion. But the fact that it’s a fruit of the spirit is something that I still continue to learn.
W: OK, what keeps you going when your inner critic is telling you you should give up?
S: My call. My … really, seriously, the sense of being sustained by call, because I have a pretty sharp inner critic. I have a … I have a pretty well-honed inner critic. And … but that sense of call is what will keep me buoyant in the midst of … in the midst of that, when I get dragged down by that.
B: I wonder if you would close our wonderful conversation we’re so thankful for with some prayer and bless … bless our podcast and bless our listeners.
S: Sure.
The Lord be with you.
B, W, M: And also with you.
S: Ever living God, you are the source of all wisdom and truth and understanding. We give you thanks for our church, those who are in it, for the body of Christ in the world, which we represent. Call us ever deeper into your life through our prayer and witness. Give us strength and courage, wisdom and discernment to see the future and to walk by faith and not by sight. And these things we ask and pray in the name of Jesus.
Amen.
B, W, M: Amen.
S: May the blessing of God, Almighty Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, be upon you and remain with you now and forever. Amen.
B: Amen. Bishop Sean Rowe, thank you for your generosity of time, for your ministry, your leadership. We will hold you in prayer in these days ahead. And we’ve got a guest room at the Berkley Center, so come and visit us soon. Please do.
S: I was there to bless it. I’m going to stay in it next. Take care.
B: Fantastic. Take care. Blessings to you.
Thank you for joining us today on The Leaders Way podcast, a show for people who are not ready to give up on the world. We hope you found the episode expansive and nourishing. If you enjoyed the episode, please be sure to subscribe, rate and review the podcast on your favorite platform. Your support helps us to continue bringing you sacred conversations with luminaries, scholars and spiritual leaders. We’re dedicated to transforming our world. For more information about our guests and to catch up on past episodes, visit our website at BerkleyDivinity.Yale.edu. Follow the show on Instagram at theleadersway.podcast to stay updated on future episodes and events. Until next time, I’m Dr. Brandon Nappi, walking with you as you lead with courage, wisdom and compassion.