58: The Idolatry of White Nationalism with Jim Wallis

Host: Brandon Nappi 

Guest: Jim Wallis 

Production: Goodchild Media

Music: Wayfaring Stranger, Theodicy Jazz Collective 

Art: E. Landino 

Instagram: @theleadersway.podcast 

berkeleydivinity.yale.edu/podcast

Brandon:  Hi. I’m Brandon Nappi.

Hannah:    Hi. I’m Hannah Black, and we’re your hosts on the Leader’s Way podcast.

B:                  A Yale podcast empowering leaders, cultivating spirituality, and exploring theology.

H:                  This podcast is brought to you by Berkeley Divinity School, the Episcopal Seminary at Yale.

B:                  Jim Wallace, welcome to the Leaders Way podcast. We’re so thankful for your time.

Jim:             Thank you.

B:                  I know when many of our listeners hear your voice, read your words, you know, they think of a courageous, brave presence at the intersection of religion and politics, but I suspect you weren’t hatched that way. And I suspect that your voice and your life evolved over time. And I wonder if you could bless us by telling us a little of that story, your call to ministry, your seminary years, and maybe even the genesis story of the Sojourners community.

J:                   Well, thanks for having me. It’s good to be with you and, it’s great to be on this podcast. The Leader’s Way, what a timely, what a timely conversation this is right now. The lesson I learned early on, I was literally a white teenage kid in Detroit. And what I learned was trust your questions and follow them till you find the answers. So I’m just a white kid in Detroit, white church, white neighborhood, white school, but something seemed really big and really wrong and nobody would talk about it. And so I kept asking questions that people didn’t want to answer. How come I hear there are a lot of poor people in Detroit? I’m now, you know, listening to my city at 15, 16. I’m reading the papers. I’m paying attention.

I’m hearing the news, and having adult conversations. And people even hungry, not very far from us. And I hear people have family members in jail. And life is so different in white Detroit than black Detroit.

How come and I hear there are black churches. How come we’ve never visited them or had them visit us? And what’s going on here?

                       I wasn’t getting answers except the only answer I got that proved to be true was, Son, if you keep asking questions like that, you’re gonna get into a lot of trouble. Prove to be true. So, so I decided to get out of my little white world and try to find the answers to the questions. So I took jobs in the city of make you know, need to make money for college back there in Michigan. So I took jobs with young black men, in Detroit, and listening to their life stories, began to change my life story. I eventually got pushed out of my white Plymouth Brethren evangelical church for asking these questions. But I got taken in by black churches right from the start, who very patiently answered my obvious, white boy questions.

                       And that led to a whole different world. There are many epiphanies for me along the way.

One, I’ll just tell you one story. I’m working at Detroit Edison as a janitor. And one of my new friends, name was Butch. We became close, so we would move all the heavy desks around and stuff. And he wanted to take me home for dinner to meet his mother. His father had passed. And so I did.

And, and he and I were talking about, what was going on in the world as two young men, and he mentioned the police, which that was a police incident was what sparked the nineteen sixty seven riot or insurrection in Detroit. Always police events, incidents, sparking, riots and insurrections. And, and his mother said this, overhearing us, she wasn’t militant, political. She was just a mom trying to take care of her kids. She said, Yeah, that’s why I tell my kids, if you’re ever lost and can’t find your way home, and you see a policeman, duck behind a building, go down a stairwell, hide from the policeman til he passes.

B:                  Right.

J:                   Then get up and find your way home because there was a whole history of police brutalizing black kids. When she said that my mother’s words to her kids, her five kids, screamed into my head. She said, “if you’re ever lost, can’t find home, look for a policeman.”

B:                  Right.

J:                   “The policeman is your friend. He’ll take you by the hand and bring you home safely.” She like Butch’s mom just cared about her kids That was her whole life, right? And so two moms, two cities two worlds and Butch’s mom was in a family waiting, still, to be welcomed in this country called The United States Of America So one epiphany after another began to change my worldview. Having been kicked out of my little home church, white church, I have become quite secular, even anti religion …

B:                  Oh, wow.

J:                   In my activist days at Michigan State University. So I wasn’t in touch with any of the, Christian groups on campus who weren’t saying or doing anything. Some were supporting the war in Vietnam, as Christians. And I was fighting against war and poverty and racism as a student activist. But we shut down the university in, that spring of 1970 over the invasion of Cambodia and the shootings at Kent State. Black students had been shot before. This time white students at Kent State were shot, so that made a media impression. But after all that organizing and tear gas and police attacks and death threats in my dorm room, I decided that I couldn’t quite get shed of Jesus, even though the church had thrown me out. So I kind of on my own went back to Jesus and I read the book of Matthew. And I found the Sermon on the Mount with the Beatitudes of Jesus. I never heard a sermon in my church on the Sermon on the Mount.

B:                  Wow.

J:                   That was for a distant dispensation. Another time. When we all get to heaven, I thought what good would that do us then? You know? But then I got to Matthew 25, which became my conversion text, which brought me back to Christ and to faith. I call it the It was me text. Jesus says I was hungry. That was me. I was that mom who, had two jobs and still needed food stamps. And now they’re cutting them.

Which they’re about to do now in Washington. That was me. I was thirsty. I was that that Flint mom who couldn’t find clean water for her kids in Flint.  In the suburbs, all the White Mountains had clean water.

She says, that was me and me too. I was I was naked. I lost everything. That was me. I was a stranger. Stranger there in the text means the word means refugee immigrant. That’s the meaning of the word in the text. I was, I was facing mass deportation. That was me. I was sick and didn’t have health care.

And now they’re gonna cut, this is all now, they’re gonna cut Medicaid, health care of the poor, and SNAP food to the poor. I was in prison and, you visited me or didn’t. And then all the people were surprised.

When, lord, when did we see you hungry and thirsty and naked and stranger and sick and imprisoned?

Had we known it was you, we would have at least formed a social action committee

B:                  or something. Of course.

J:                   But he says, well, as you’ve done it to the least of these, the poorest, most vulnerable, you’ve done it to me. So that text, saved my life and changed my life. And so I went off to seminary at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, leading the evangelical seminary right outside Chicago. And we formed a group there that became sojourners And we were finding a whole new meaning for the gospel in our time.

And that’s how Sojourners started and we took it around the country. We weren’t a big marketing firm, but we had postcards and took it to campuses and it just spread. I was gonna go to law school. That was my plan.

B:                  Oh, wow.

J:                   In Michigan and then run for office. But Sojourners took off and I stayed there, for fifty years.

And, actions and publications, magazine movement for around nuclear weapons, first Vietnam nuclear weapons, racism always, the war in Iraq, apartheid in South Africa, always war and poverty and racism.

So, but then after fifty years, I didn’t want to be at my desk the morning after the party. So I turned it over to my young mentees and leaders of Sojourners. Adam Taylor is the president now. And I’ve been teaching at Georgetown, first at Harvard, then Georgetown, faith and politics. But I can only do one class a year because of my organization. So Jack DeGioia, the president, invited me to come full time with an endowed chair. It’s called the Archbishop Desmond Tutu Chair of Faith and Justice.

B:                  Wow.

J:                   And to start a center on faith and justice for the whole university. So, when they give you your two favorite words, faith and justice, and make them a chair and a center, you’re a happy camper.

And so I still work with Sojourners on all kinds of things with Adam, but still I’m in this new venue now at the McCourt School of Public Policy at Georgetown for my chair, but then, the center serves the whole university on issues of faith and justice.

B:                  Gosh. Well, I mean, thank you for narrating your story. I mean, I have so many thoughts and many, many questions, but what’s coming up for me is just the power of this auspicious, Matthew 25, piece of scripture. And what’s occurring to me as I hear you describe how pivotal it was and how life-directing it was. I think what occurs to me is that as the gospel writer is putting together this passage, right, in the earliest days of the Christian community, this would have been a moment in the scripture to do a bit of gatekeeping, right? Who gets to experience the kingdom of God? This would have been the natural moment to say, well, you need to believe the creed. Here’s what you need to do to be one of us. And being one of us will grant you access to the kingdom of God, right? But it’s actually not what Matthew does in that moment; rather than gatekeep and sort of welcome people into a closed community, he sort of blows up this idea of community and makes the measure of our participation in the kingdom of God dependent on our loving those who are struggling the most in our community. It’s one of those moments in scripture that I’m shocked actually got preserved. That some editor didn’t come in and say, Oh, and, you know, believes in the Trinity or and believes in the two natures of Christ or something. But like it got put in that way. Like, love the least of these and that’s the essence of the kingdom. I mean, am I missing something? Do you read it similarly?

J:                   No. You’re–that’s right, to the point. In fact, in the Bibles we have often that scripture is listed as the judgment of nations.

B:                  Alright.

J:                   The judgment of nations. Now Jesus is not often judgmental in the scriptures. And a lot of people like that, that he’s not a judgmental person, a hypocrite. But this is the most judgmental of all of his teachings.

B:                  Yeah.

J:                   And this is his final teaching before going into Jerusalem, to be crucified and resurrected.

This was his final his last test of discipleship. And you’re so right, it isn’t around doctrine or creed or people’s, personal sins. It’s about how we treat literally the most vulnerable, poorest, most marginal in our society. It’s the most radical thing. And I, you know, I was in the movement, so I was reading, Ho Chi Minh, Che Guevara, and Karl Marx, and none of them are as radical as Jesus. None of them. This is, this is the very Son of God saying, sitting in judgment, and all the sheep and the ghosts, the two groups of people, they all thought they belonged to him. They all thought they were his followers. And they heard this and they said, wait a minute. Why are you breaking up all of this? We never saw you or heard you as a marine, sick and stranger. He says, no, it was me. And the way you treat, whether the way you welcome or not, the way you give food to the hungry or not, whether you clothe the naked or not, whether you, whether you bring the stranger into your, into your lives or not, whether you deal with the sick in prison, the thirsty or not, that’s the judgment here. So it’s a very powerful text for me. It’s–it was Dorothy Day’s conversion text I found out later. I think it’s probably true for lots of us. It was my conversion text. And it still, converts me every day because it’s so easy, to not have proximity to the least of these, even in our churches, you know, we’re not in our circle. They’re outside, and Jesus says, I’m with them. If you want to be with me, you’ve got to be with them.

                       I’ll tell you a quick story here. I’ve preached on that text. I often preach on that text, but I did want to the Christian College in a very conservative place. And the chaplain who brought me in and he wanted to give his students a different approach, a different perspective than they normally hear at this conservative evangelical college. And the students were very responsive. And the faculty in the room in chapel were very responsive, but not so much the board and the donors. And the chaplain got fired.

B:                  Wow.

J:                   He got fired for bringing me in and preaching that text. And no one said it wasn’t biblical. No one said it wasn’t true to scripture, but they fired him. And he had three kids. And I just felt so sad that I’d gotten this guy fired.  It really, and so we stayed in touch. I was, you know, want to follow him, looking up how he was doing and try to get him jobs.

                       And one day he called me and said, “I want you to stop worrying about me. Because when I got fired, I had more time in my hands. So we all passed under this bridge, driving through the expressway and under the bridge are all these homeless people, always lots of them. And we all pass by and say, oh, isn’t that sad? But now I had time to stop. So I stopped again and again and just hung out with people. After a while, I would say, do you all go to church? And they said, no, we I used to, but now I can’t. I’m homeless. And and we talked about all of this. And finally, we’ve established the church under the bridge.”

B:                  Wow.

J:                   “And I’m the pastor. And I want to thank you for getting me fired with that text. Because you said the closer we get to the least of these, the closer we get to Jesus. And I have never felt closer to Jesus in my whole career than I do right now as the pastor of the church under the bridge.”

B:                  Wow. Holy cow. So one of the things that all of us who identify as Christian need to be radically honest about is that being a self -identified Christian, demographically, predicts that, that we vote for Trump in in larger numbers. And I’m curious what you think is going on here that would lead Christians to completely reject the gospel and Matthew 25, this central text for two thousand years. What is it that Christians who espouse a kind of Trumpism or Christian nationalism, what is it that you think they think are getting out of completely abandoning the heart of the gospel? What’s the trade here?

J:                   Well, it’s a false white gospel. And that’s the last book I wrote. I was at 50 cities between the book launch and the election, about this false white gospel. It’s false religion. It’s religion to gain power, not religion to love and to serve. And so, there’s always religious support for autocratic rulers. Now, authoritarianism is a theological issue, not just a partisan political one. Because of human nature and what we can become, leaders without restraints or checks or balances, the danger is– we need checks and balances in democracy so that we don’t succumb to the instincts of a human being with all this power, which becomes absolute power. And so it’s theologically important to stand up to that and say no and to say no to, being vulnerable. And remember, let’s be clear who voted for Donald Trump. It was the majority of white Christians.

B:                  White Christians.

J:                   Yeah. Who voted for Donald Trump. 80% of white evangelicals in my own tradition, but a majority of white mainline Christians, majority of white Catholic Christians voted for Trump.

Black churches didn’t. There was a little increase in younger Black men, but not substantial. There was a bigger increase in Hispanic young men, but still under a majority. So majority of Black and Brown Asian people voted for–did not vote for Donald Trump. So, churches were split on their voting. And I just … I’m gonna say as a white man, the problem is in the phrases white evangelical, white Christian even white Christianity, the white dominates the other words. White dominates Evangelical. White dominates mainline across–white dominates, Catholic. We’re white people first. And the reason this is happening is that we are closer to a multiracial democracy than we have ever been before. And that’s why there’s such a reaction.

                       A whole lot of white people are still uncomfortable with the fact that by, you know, 2040, we’re no longer a white majority nation. We’re, we’re a majority of minorities. And you remember back in your early church, we were a counter cultural Christian community. Those who followed that text in Matthew 25 and all of Jesus’ teachings, that–they lived in a countercultural way. They were a minority. They weren’t a majority culture that had to hang on to its ethnicity and its power. That’s idolatry. It’s not just bad politics. Authoritarianism, religious support for authoritarianism, for the king, the ruler, the strong man, is literally idolatry. It’s false religion. So what’s at stake here is literally our democracy, but at a deeper level for me, the integrity of our faith. What will be the faith factor now going forward? 

So I think … a black pastor yesterday said to me, is anybody really surprised that most white Christians voted for Donald Trump? Should that really surprise anybody? Because we as black pastors are deeply disappointed, feel deeply betrayed, but I can’t say we’re shocked or surprised. 

B:                  So when you think about the kind of leadership that’s needed, especially for clergy, for people of faith, what’s called for at the moment? Because we have we have two great extremes, that we’re seeing a kind of Christian nationalism where, you know, our nationalist, our white nationalist priorities get superimposed on the gospel. And as you mentioned, the whiteness and the nationalism always win out over the gospel. And then I’ve noticed, and this is purely anecdotal, but I’ve noticed a kind of silence among many clergy, especially white clergy who feel immobilized, overwhelmed, afraid to speak out, afraid to polarize their congregations, and in effect are not preaching the gospel, right? Both sides distort the gospel. And you have charted a really important path through those two extremes and helped so many of us to find the gospel’s political voice. I wonder in this very unique, disturbing, heartbreaking moment, what’s the particular call for Christian faith leaders?

J:                   Yeah.

                       Well, if defending the vulnerable is number one, let’s make number two defending the truth. Now, Jesus said, you’ll know the truth, and the truth will make you free. I have kind of grace to say that when I quote “make you” and say “free.” Okay? The opposite of the truth, therefore, isn’t just poor lies. 

It’s captivity. It’s loss of freedom. Without the truth, Jesus said, we’ll lose freedom. And so while journalists have this vocation of being truth tellers, and they do that well sometimes and not other times.

Right now, they’re rejected from the White House press room if they don’t change the name of the Gulf Of Mexico, the Gulf Of America. But we have as pastors, as faith leaders, that same vocation of truth telling. So we have to tell the truth about what’s happening around us and what the gospel says. That’s what we have to do. 

                       Now, there’s often–I may surprise you. There’s often a call to unity, called unity. If unity is based on gaining the consensus in white churches, we’re never gonna get it without being silent, as you speak. Protecting unity in majority of white churches means being silent. We can’t do that. The confessing church in Germany led by Bonhoeffer and Barth, they weren’t silent, and they weren’t gonna unify the white German church by consensus. They had to speak up and speak out. And Bonhoeffer was hung in a concentration camp. So it’s a time for us to reach out to those white Christian nationalists as a mission field. As, Caleb Campbell, young white pastor in Phoenix, Arizona, I did a podcast with him just last week called “Dismantling the Leviathan,” the beast.

                       But there’s always this powerful spiritual force aimed at the people of God. It’s a false spiritual force. And that’s … white Christian nationalism is a heresy. It’s an idolatry. It’s a spiritual force aimed to take away the gospel. That’s what it is. And so we have to reach out to them as a mission field. Like Will Campbell reached out to Southern–he was a Tennessee pastor, leader in the civil rights movement, but he was a pastor to Klan members in his congregation. He did their funerals, he pastored them while he was speaking out for civil rights. And so, I think breaking the silence is gonna be very, very important. Now, if unity means silence, it’s not the unity that’s required right now. Unity has to mean coming together around the truth, around the gospel. And the courage to face the fear. I hear it from pastors. “I’m afraid I’ll lose my congregation. I’ll lose my pension fund.”

B:                  Right.

J:                   “I’ll lose my job. I’ll lose my parsonage, which I need to raise my kids.” So, it’s gotta be now faith versus fear. We have a whole new regime, which won election on the basis of fear. They ran on fear. Racial fear in particular.  They ran on fear and now they were governed by fear.  They’re threatening Republicans in their new trifecta who would stand up against Donald Trump. And so there’s fear. Fear is up in the Congress, everywhere, and even in our churches, fear is keeping pastors silent. And because of that, we’re help helping our people lose their freedom. That’s what Jesus says. So, so, you know, Bonhoeffer and Barth might have been accused of dividing the churches.

B:                  Yeah. 

J:                   And they were, in a sense. They were saying, we will obey God; our obedience is to God. The Barman declaration that Barth wrote, our obedience is to obey God, not a political leader. And so we will obey God. And we have a political leader who wants us all to obey Him. This is a clash of worship here.

And these cuts to the poorest are literally anti-Christ. Anti-Christ. So it’s time for us to make some decisions and stand up. It will always be a minority that stands up. Always. The maturities, you know, just kind of go along at the end. But, you know, it’ll be … but a faithful prophetic minority who is reaching out pastorally to those who have been captured by false  religion, it’s a prophetic and pastoral function we have right now.

B:                  Now. When I’m speaking with secular leaders or leaders who lead outside church spaces and faith communities, this is usually where I turn to the to the question about leadership skills. Right? So … so what do we need practically in the tool belt to lead as you’re describing in this moment? 

                       But before I get there, because this is … this is a conversation within the faith community, I have a question about spirituality and prayer and spiritual practice. I mean, you’ve been at this for so many decades now. I’m curious for you personally, and I hope it’s not too personal a question, but what are the forms of prayer, the spiritual practices that keep you grounded amid this work? Because it is heart-stretching to say the least. It is … it is a kind of a battle for hearts and minds in one way, in one metaphorical way, a nonviolent battle for hearts and minds here. And, the least powerful in our midst have the most to lose and will pay the highest price. How do you stay spiritually tethered and grounded amid this work over such a such a long period of time?

J:                   Well, this is the most important question of this conversation because it’s a time for a deeper resilience. Resilience. We need to do resistance as others have done. But underneath that, undergirding that, is resilience. And unless we find a deeper resilience, we won’t be able to find the courage and bear the costs of resilience. Courage and costs and resistance. So resilience. I’m saying to people, rediscover your faith. Or discover what is faith for you. What is larger than yourself? Then go to the … to the spiritual disciplines and practices of your faith tradition. And take more time. Go deeper. And in particular, I’m saying start your day with spiritual disciplines, practices; silence, prayer, scripture, mindfulness.

Start there before you hit the news. Before, prepare yourself. Before you start reading the news, which is getting worse by the day. So–and you’ve been doing a lot of this. You’ve been teaching and preaching this. 

                       Start with … take a breath in the morning. Be silent. Be quiet. Make your devotional before that day starts. It’s also good to do it during the day as you have opportunity before you go to bed at night. But we’ve got to be rooted, rooted in our faith. And that’s disciplines, practices. Many call it mindfulness. Christians often call it a quiet time, a devotional time. Those times are more important than ever right now. Because the resistance that will follow has got to be rooted someplace. And if not, we’ll be overwhelmed, we’ll be weary, we’ll just feel like we’re just fragmented. How do we, how do we, bring our minds, our scattered minds, our fearful hearts, how do we bring them back to God?

                       I love Psalm 46. Be still. Be still. Be still and know that I am God. Be still and know that I’m God despite the news you’re about to hear or the friends who’ve lost their jobs or what you hear about the poorest and most vulnerable dying around the world. Be still. I’m doing a lot of Psalms right now. A lot of Psalms. Psalms and gospels. Psalms that turn our fragmented scattered minds back to God. And the gospel of Jesus. What did he say? What did he do? What did he mean? That, I think, can first save our souls. And then maybe help us working with others who are religious and secular to save our country.

B:                  Oh, thanks for calling us to the Psalms. I think of  just the raw emotion and the bold honesty of so many of the Psalms, just feel so needed in in these moments of heartbreak. And I also really appreciate the kind of paradox between contemplation and and action that you’re, you’re bringing into relief here because we need quiet to use our voice. We need silence so that we don’t remain silent. Right? There’s a kind of gorgeous paradox there. Right?

J:                   Well said.

B:                  As you … as you shift from the kind of foundation of, spiritual rootedness, obviously these are really important vital skills to keep us resilient and steadfast. What are the kind of leadership skills that you think of when you’re teaching at Georgetown or you’re speaking to groups? What are the kind of tangible skills as activists, as faith leaders, as leaders of nonprofit organizations, who maybe at the moment are being decimated as funding gets cut. In when you think about your kind of leadership tool belt, what are those go to tools that you that you call upon in moments like this?

J:                   I think we have this as a teacher at Georgetown. I’ve got, 40 students again tomorrow. They’re all public policy students who are graduating this Bea and I teach the ethics class as they go into their…  the world of career and vocation. Very diverse class in every way, religiously, racially, socioeconomically. And we’ve created this place that is safe, that is secure, that allows them to talk not just to me, but to each other. They call it living out our diversity. I love that phrase. Not just being diverse by measuring data. And every week it’s a place where we can talk. And I remember during the terrible crisis last fall, we–I had Palestinian women and progressive Jewish women talking together in class. Cross talk, which wasn’t happening much yet. Most universities. We’ve got to create that kind of conversation, and we can. I’m seeing it happen. And I’m seeing Georgetown, my school here, stand up to all the threats from Washington by appealing to their Jesuit values.

B:                  You’re right.

J:                   Not just be in the weeds with preventing cuts to research grants, but we’re standing up and we’re having these conversations here in Georgetown in the president’s office about about, putting our Jesuit values first, putting our core up top, putting our core to our calling. And the Georgetown Law School was just told to change their curriculum, take out everything about race and DEI, and Georgetown Law School said, no. No. That’s unconstitutional, and our Jesuit values are what governs. No is the answer.

                       So institutionally standing up and saying no is gonna be important. We’re in Holy Week and well, we’re in Lent. Sorry. We’re in Lent now, and Holy Week’s coming up in Easter week. And we’re—a number of us are gonna be acting locally, calling for actions locally, strong, standing up, speaking up by the faith community, of Stations of the Cross on Good Friday to all the places in the local community that exemplify the injustice being done. Holy Week, Easter week, members of Congress are home for … they’re back in their home districts, and they’re gonna see faith people. While you meet with them, talk with them, have meetings with them, town meetings, and stand up and have prayer vigils all over the place.

So we’re gonna lift up the voice, lift up our voices as faith leaders all around the country, and then you’re gonna see that happening here in Washington too. So finding the Lenten foundations, getting ready. Getting ready. Lent gets us ready for Easter. And Easter gives us the strength to, in fact, believe; act like those who believe that our resurrection has happened and will continue to in our lives. So putting liturgy together with a legislative calendar is something that you’re gonna see more and more going forward.

B:                  If folks wanted to, participate or learn or get inspired by that work, where could they turn to to find some resources or just track all the good work that you’re doing?

J:                   You know, connect with us at the Georgetown Center for Faith and Justice, and we’ll connect you to all kinds of places and people who are standing up and have resources and toolkits, what to do in a time like this, how to convene people, how to how to get people talking about what the gospel says, how to support each other, how to support those who are who are, facing mass deportation, even those without any criminal records whatsoever. So we’re talking in churches all across the country about what welcoming the stranger means. We Senator Georgetown has filed a lawsuit with lawyers here at Georgetown, to prevent ICE from conducting raids to arrest and deport people inside our congregations.  All three Jewish denominations have supported that. The whole Episcopal Church has supported that.

Disciples of Christ AME Zion, 12 churches, 27 plaintiffs, altogether are suing to bar in Homeland Security to respect the old sensitive locations which they used to in hospitals, schools, and churches. They’re not doing that now. They rejected that, so we’re suing them for that. So we’re gonna see a lot of churches welcoming the stranger and saying no to those raids coming to their churches.

B:                  Wow. Well, amid the myriad ways that the administration is dehumanizing, criminalizing human existence, and cutting funding, amid all of the bad news and there’s no shortage of it, it’s always our tradition to invite our beloved guests to reflect a little bit on what … what’s bringing hope amid all the heaviness in a moment like this. What keeps you walking this path and bringing hope, amid this dim moment in our political life?

J:                   Most spiritual directors talk about the importance of gratitude. Gratitude. And how do we have gratitude at a time like this? How do we–how can we have joy at a time like this? And so I’m very conscious of not letting Donald Trump steal my joy. So in April, because of my son and his wife, Joy and I will be grandparents for the first time. That’s a very joyful thing, and no one can take that joy away from us. I just returned from Florida where my younger son, his baseball team from Haverford, did their annual spring tournament for spring training. Joy and I spent the whole day watching him play baseball. And he did really well. And the team did really well. And no one can take away that joy of being with my son, his teammates, and their parents for the wonderful week together, a tournament of other colleges in Florida.

                       So how do we … how do we be grateful? What Thomas Merton taught us is that everything is about relationships. That’s what he said. Everything is about relationships. So gratitude, being aware of those close to you that you love and care for, being close to them during this time, getting closer during this time, being grateful for the things in our life that we should be grateful for. The blessings, the wonderful things we don’t deserve that come our way, and the joy that we bring to our lives is crucial even in difficult times.

                       I’ll maybe end with something taught to me by my tutor and mentor and friend, Archbishop Desmond Tutu. Now, Arch–my chair at Georgetown is called the Archbishop Desmond Tutu chair of faith and justice. And I’m delighted it was named after my mentor and tutor. And he taught me the difference between optimism and joy. Or–excuse me. He taught me the difference between optimism and hope. Optimism is often a feeling or a mood, or a personality-type, cup half-empty/cup half-full. Hope is a decision, he taught me, a choice you make because of this thing that we call faith. Hebrews says, now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. And my best paraphrase of that text is that hope means believing in spite of the evidence, and then watching the evidence change.

                       And Desmond Tutu probably as a bishop and pastor over all that suffering, he probably wasn’t optimistic most days under apartheid. But he kept choosing, choosing, choosing hope, believing in hope because of his faith. And to me, that’s what I want to live into now. Whether days are optimistic or not, a little of optimism comes in and out. But hope is something we can make we all can make a decision about because of our faith. So I’m gonna follow his teaching on that, that hope is not a feeling or a mood. It’s a choice. It’s a good decision. And more of us need to make that decision each and every day.

H:                  Thanks for listening to the Leaders Way podcast. You can learn more about this episode at berkleydivinity.yale.edu/podcast. Follow along with us on Instagram at theleadersway.podcast.

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H:                  Until next time.

B:                  Peace be with you.