Brandon: Welcome to the Leader’s Way podcast. In the wild freedom of the 90s and growing up in those wild and free days when we were all free-range kids, and we had … the cable box had about 14 channels, if you were like me, to explore. One of the most exciting things to do on a rainy Saturday afternoon was to explore the 14 choices that you had. It was amazing. We thought that was a lot back in the day. And I can remember, it must have been wintertime because it was like a dim, almost dark late afternoon, and the grainy 1970s dramatization of the Jonestown cult was on TV, and I don’t know, was I … 10 years old? And I can remember watching in horror as this very charismatic cult leader, you know, convinced thousands of people, if I’m not mistaken, to commit mass suicide. And it terrified me, but it also planted within me really deep questions around the nature of God,
the nature of manipulating others, the dangers of community life, the dangers of organized religion, as much as faith-based communities can be a real bright light and beloved communities, there’s clearly shadow sides that we all acknowledge, and history is full of many of these examples. And so they set me on a path of really wanting to probe these deep questions around God and community and the shadow side of what otherwise, you know, as a young child, was bringing me so much joy and love being involved in a church community.
And if you know me in real life at all, you know that I have a real fascination with, to this day, cult documentaries, Stolen Youth is one, Breath of Fire, Wild, Wild Country is absolutely insane in so many ways. I hope you’ll check that one out. Love has One, Desperately Seeking Soulmate … Kumare is another fascinating one. Kumare is the story of someone who, after college, doesn’t know what to do and decides on a whim, on a joke, to create a cult out of thin air, just as an experiment. And he literally makes up all the practices out of absurdity and nonsense and develops all these followers, some of whom actually claim to have been healed. And it’s the story about how it’s actually quite easy to create a cult, but also the real sense of community and healing that can happen, even in a nonsense cult and then ultimately what happens when he shares that he’s not who he says he is, Kumare is absolutely fantastic.
But I think many of us over the last number of years have been struck by the NXIVM cult portrayed in the incredibly dramatic and sweeping documentary on HBO called The Vow. And to watch this cult implode, to watch the bravery, to watch the real spiritual transformation and growth and insight developing in real time among some of the folks who were involved in the cult and then actually come to a level of self-awareness and then heroically bring the whole thing down. It raises a lot of deep and profound theological questions, and so I would encourage you to watch it.
We’re blessed today by a conversation with Bonnie Piesse, who was a part of The NXIVM cult and whose career is much, much bigger than The NXIVM itself. But in this conversation, I’m really, really thankful because we touch on this theme of inner knowing and intuition and discernment. Like, how do we hear that still small voice? However we name this, the voice of God, the voice of conscience, the voice of intuition leading us, when a culture, a subculture, a group, a community, a cult is gaslighting us and leading us astray and maybe taking a little grain of truth and distorting it and bastardizing it in such a way and packaging it in such a way that it creates a whole toxic world of harm, of control, of manipulation.
So this is a conversation about how do we listen into that sacred voice, what happens when we dismiss that divine voice. And one of the things that I think is really important to distinguish is this is not about what I think is a kind of tired trope, like spirituality=good, religion=bad. Because of course there’s healthy religion and there’s toxic religion. There’s healthy spirituality, there’s toxic spirituality. And of course The NXIVM cult was completely secular. So really what we’re trying to listen for is no matter whether we’re in a really vibrant faith community, whether we’re spiritual but not religious, whether we’re considering becoming more spiritual, whether we’re considering taking a step and entering a faith community. This is about the kind of inner skills of listening to what I’m going to call God’s voice within us, what Bonnie will call how do we listen to source, how do we listen to the divine leading us, guiding us in life.
This is so important no matter where you find yourself in life because there are many forces in the world that are always trying to colonize our inner knowing. And what happens when we outsource our inner knowing is that we surrender our own autonomy, our own happiness, and a great deal of harm is done not only to ourselves but to others. So I’m so thankful for Bonnie taking the time to come by the Leader’s Way Podcast. You may want to pause here and go watch the documentary of it and then come back, or you may want to listen to Bonnie first and then go back and watch the documentary on HBO.
Let me tell you a little bit about Bonnie. Bonnie Piesse is an Australian-American actress, singer-songwriter, composer who now lives in Austin, Texas. She’s best known for her role in Star Wars. She was the adoptive mother of Luke Skywalker in Episode 2, Attack of the Clones, Episode 3, Revenge of the Sith, and also in the series Obi-Wan Kenobi. She recently starred in Amanda Reynolds, My Favorite Girlfriend, alongside Tyler Johnson, Michael Nury, and Kestin John. As a singer-songwriter, her songs and compositions have been featured in numerous films and TV shows, including Miss Arizona, also in The Vow on HBO, on CW’s Life Unexpected, Losing in Love, and the Three Hikers and Expecting, and her resume only grows. Bonnie is just a luminous soul, radiant and always incredibly wise, whose life is much, much bigger than this one cult. And so we talk about all these pieces of her life and focus most of this conversation on inner knowing. So I hope you enjoy this dialogue as much as I did.
Welcome to the Leaders Way podcast, a show for people who are not ready to give up on the world. We convene sacred conversations with luminaries, scholars, and spiritual leaders who explore the creative vision needed to lead change in our aching world. I’m Dr. Brandon Nappi, lecturer at Yale Divinity School and executive director of the Office of Transforming Leaders at Berkeley Divinity School at Yale. I’m so glad you’re here.
Bonnie Piesse, welcome to the Leader’s Way podcast.
Bonnie: Thank you.
Brandon: I’m just so excited to have you here. Of course, we came to know you through the documentary, “The Vow,” about NXIVM. And I have to say, my wife and I felt like you were just part of our family, you and Mark. And we were just so moved by your journey and watching your journey of intuition and self-trust and courage unfold. And so we know so much about that chapter of your life, but that chapter of your life is such a small slice of who you are and how your life is unfolded. And so I wonder if you could take us back to your early days and growing up in Australia and tell us a bit of your story so that we can have a fuller picture of your life and all this creativity that’s flown through you.
Bonnie: For sure. Yeah, you’re right. That was one chapter. And actually, it kind of feels like a while ago now. It was a while ago. I mean, 2026 now. So I left 20, 2017. So, yeah, like a whole other chapter has happened now. But to take you back. So I’m Australian. You can probably hear from my mixed accent. My mom says I sound American now. So it’s like I don’t fit anywhere.
Brandon: Oh, that’s funny. Right.
Bonnie: But yeah, I grew up in Australia. I did have a little chapter in my childhood on Maui. So that was pretty awesome. I went to a Waldorf school on Maui. But for the most part in Australia. And same thing as –a Steiner school. So Waldorf school. And yeah, it’s like a very creative upbringing that I had. Super, like, a lot of freedom to sing and play and express and climb trees. I would climb like to the top of massive pine trees and no one worried. I was just like, right up to the top. I’d look at the city. I’m like swaying in the wind. No problem. Some people did fall out of trees and and break their arms. But it was it was a different time, wasn’t it?
Brandon: Yeah, it was a … it was a price and a cost that I think we are all willing to pay right for the kind of freedom and creative expression and adventure that we I think at one point all agreed was really necessary in life.
Bonnie: Yeah. So I had a lot of that freedom and I picked up singing and songwriting in my early teen years. So I started like writing songs and entering songwriting competitions and I started acting as well. My friend … I was springboard diving actually. And my friend at springboard diving had a modeling/acting agent and I thought that was really interesting. So I did some modeling. I didn’t like that. Can’t say I was great at modeling. I’m not great at posing or smiling on cue unless it’s a character. But then acting really resonated with me and I got my first kind of big acting role when I was 15 in a TV series in Australia.
Brandon: We do have a listenership in Australia. Yeah. So what series would that have been?
Bonnie: It was called “High Fliers” and it was a circus show. So I got to learn the trapeze and I’d like climb up the Spanish web and then they’d spin me around. So a lot of like circus tricks.
Brandon: Wow. One of our favorite sort of patron saints around Yale Divinity School is a spiritual writer and priest by the name of Henry Nouwen. I don’t know if you know this name is widely regarded as one of the great spiritual writers in the English language who’s Dutch. And he wrote a whole book connecting trapeze and the circus arts to the spiritual life. Really? And I wonder if in your own life and in the coaching work that we’ll certainly get into, I wonder if there’s sort of a natural line that you would connect between the sort of inner work and self-trust and your experience of trapeze.
Bonnie: Wow. That’s so interesting. I hadn’t thought of that before. I mean, like immediately the thought that came is you kind of climb up, right? Like you’re, and then you’re swinging like up with the heavens kind of. There was something really magical about it for sure.
Brandon: Yeah. I bet. Yeah. And I think for him, the way he experienced this, and this would have been sort of circus arts and I don’t know, I suppose like the seventies or eighties. So there’s probably even this extra layer of danger. But I think for him, it was about learning this level of trust, actually, of sort of letting go. Everything in your mind probably says, don’t do this. People die doing this. And yet there’s a kind of, yeah, abandonment to, to, to the trust. I think that he was trying to –I’ll have to get off and go back in and read this. Anyone, if you have anyone’s interested in this. Yeah. I think it’s called Clowning in Rome by Henri Nouwen. Anyway.
Bonnie: Oh, I’m going to check that out. Check that out. And I could totally see that. Yeah. Like freedom, like flying, but with danger. Yeah.
Brandon: Right. So you’re acting, you have your debut on this, in the series in Australia and then, and then what next?
Bonnie: Then I did some TV shows in my kind of final high school years in Australia. And then I just, I wanted to go to Hollywood. I was like, yeah, that’s the dream. And so when I was 18, I jumped on a plane with my guitar and suitcase. The star Wars premiere was opening. So I had my role in that and I was like, yeah, I’ll go to the premiere. And so I found myself in Hollywood and actually starting a music career there. That was kind of how I started. I never fully pursued acting in the States. It’s interesting. Like stuff kind of took off in Australia and then things will come to me. Like I get offered roles. I’m very happy with that. That’s great. But I never, I’ve just never done the hustle here, but I hustled for music for a while.
Brandon: So you were Luke Skywalker’s adopted mother. Right. I mean, this is amazing. I mean, as someone who, you know, like, like most of America kind of grew up in one way or another with Star Wars, like was in the movie theater in the late 70s when the, when the first film came out. I just wonder, can you provide us just a little glimpse? Like what, what was that like? Did you have to, did you have to pinch yourself or kind of when you get in that space, does it just feel so ordinary?
Bonnie: I definitely had to pinch myself and it did. It felt surreal. Like for sure. I mean, I arrived in Tunisia and I was like out in the Sahara with George Lucas and Natalie Portman and Hayden Christensen, like standing around and like the Lars homestead, which if you know, Star Wars, it’s like Tatooine. There were definitely moments of like, I’m like hanging out with Anthony Daniels who was dressed up as C3PO.
Brandon: Oh my God.
Bonnie: So it was really exciting. But the funny thing was I actually called it in, in terms of manifestation. Like I put it out there because I was acting in Australia and then I heard that they were shooting Star Wars there. They were shooting like a piece of it in Sydney at Fox studios. And I just kind of started putting it out there to the universe and imagining like visualizing like that they would call me and they did. Yeah.
Brandon: That’s extraordinary. I mean.
Bonnie: So I expected it sort of, but I mean, who expects that?
Brandon: Who expects? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I mean, way to shoot for the stars. And get to the stars, right? Isn’t this thing like you shoot for the stars and you get the moon? Right.
Bonnie: And I was also open, like it didn’t have to be Star Wars. I was like, I was like, I want a little role. I wanted a small role because I wanted to just, you know, experience a bit of a in a huge production. I was like, it’s like a small role in a massive production and putting it out there. Star Wars, if that’s right. And it came. Yeah. But surreal.
Brandon: But surreal. Yeah. I bet. I mean, so much of, I don’t know, is it culture? Is it social media? Is it just the human mind wants to categorize and sort of stick people in lanes, right? Like is Bonnie the actor? Is she the singer-songwriter? Is she that person from the documentary that we saw? Is she now like life coach doing personal development? And I wonder how you see yourself. And I presume that all of this is woven together, that those sort of categories that the mind wants to throw all humanity in are just not the case for you. But unpack a little bit how you see all these different sort of creative and I would say even healing, each of them, healing modes connected on the back end.
Bonnie: Yeah, that’s really true. Like I’ve always had so many interests and so many passions and things that I want to follow. And when I first started doing music in Hollywood, actually, there was a lot of talk in the industry at that time. It was like early two thousands, about how you had to pick one. You really like you were either an actor or a singer and you couldn’t be both and you certainly couldn’t be like many different things. And I remember kind of believing that like I gave my authority away for sure. Like, OK, if I want to be successful, I just have to be a singer. So, you know, giving my power away. But also feeling frustrated. It was like, like, like, no, like I’m an actor as well. And like things were flowing like, what do you mean? Like, so I have to like turn down roles so that I can sing? So that was complex.
And then, you know, then there was the other the chapter of giving my power away in other ways in the cult of like fitting myself into boxes. And then breaking free of that. And it feels like since then I just kind of go with what’s calling me. And it’s different at different times. Like right now, music’s not calling me. It’s kind of like a little gap in music, but I know it will again. So it’s right now it’s like, yeah, supporting people with mentoring and acting as well. But funnily enough, I actually had just … I was feeling a bit jaded about Hollywood. You know, just there’s a lot of stuff coming out about the industry. And I just was like, oh, like, I don’t know anymore, you know. And as soon as I kind of had that thought of like, you know, maybe not for a while, then, of course, I get a call. And I’m doing a movie later this year.
Brandon: Oh, my God. Yeah. Are you allowed to tell us anything about it?
Bonnie: I don’t know. I should probably check with the director. So I better not. It’s cool. Yeah.
Brandon: Isn’t this interesting? Even how we sometimes do this to ourselves, I mean, this comes up a lot in the one on one work that I do with folks in the in the work that I do even with spiritual leaders and clergy that I’m supposed to be this one thing. And I’m supposed to inhabit this role the way others do. And so much of my work these days, there must be something in the air around this, is really charting your own path, that you can you can do pieces of work that look really traditional, that kind of fit into people’s expectations. And other pieces of the work that Gosh, why are you doing that? Who knows? Like, you’re just following this this call. You know, in the in the Christian world, you know, we would we would call this vocation, right? This calling this indescribable, oh, it’s gravitational. You can’t not do it. Like every cell in your being feels like it wants to organize around this. And so I love– thank you for sort of witnessing in your own way how you’ve been faithful to that inner that inner calling in ways that maybe defy categorization.
Bonnie: Yeah, there is that fear of like that people think like, yeah, I have to put myself in one box. And of course, there’s all the like business coaches and stuff that say you got to niche down, you know, like, who’s your ideal client, like exactly who are they? I’m like, I don’t know. Like someone who wants to follow their calling, right? And that could be anyone. But yeah, that, this thing about really listening to and feeling connecting with and following your calling has been so important to me for many years. Like, I actually think back to when I read The Alchemist, and, you know, that whole thing of, of really following what’s pulling you on the deepest level and how we go off track. Like how we get stuck. I mean, I actually haven’t read it in a long time. So I need to, but I believe there’s a chapter where, like, he becomes a crystal salesman or something like selling crystals. Yeah, crystal vendor. Which sure, that was like a part of the chapter, but that’s not the calling. And so it’s like, what’s calling your soul? Well, I’m getting chills with this. What’s calling you? And yeah, don’t get stuck being a crystal vendor. And I’ve had my chapters of, yeah, putting myself in boxes and thinking, I need to be this to be successful. And it’s really disempowering.
Brandon: I love the part of this that you’re naming, that I think a lot of people miss that might feel freeing. So let me name it again and then have you maybe unpack it a little more. But the seasonality of calling and following the intuition. It’s not like you get a download and it’s this one thing forever. Right? Sometimes when, you know, like on social media, Instagram, where I try and show up a few times a week, there’s this kind of universal sense. Like your purpose gets downloaded. It’s unchanging. It’s that one lane. It’s like your lane disclosure for the rest of your life. What in the world works that way? Like life changes and it shifts and the seasons change. And I mean, you’ve already named this, but thank you for articulating. It’s really helpful to think about it that way.
Bonnie: I don’t know, right? Like right now I’m super interested in finances and the stock market. I’m like, what? Where did that come from? You know, and like, it’s really, I’m passionate about it. And the 20 year old me who was like full on, you know, music and acting and, you know, all the things. I was just like so not drawn to any of that stuff. And it’s interesting how it opens up. But I feel like if we can trust that it has a life of its own and it will lead us in a way that we can trust. And that’s one of the things that I think that we can do in amazing directions.
Brandon: Well, I mean, maybe this is a good moment then to talk about how, how we can really hear and honor that, that intuition that … I mean, this is called in various spiritual traditions, different things, you know, intuition, inner knowing, conscience, the inner voice, the soul, vocation. And when my wife and I were watching the NXIVM documentary, I was struck. We were all just initially struck by, by your wrestling with your own intuition. And, and I wonder if you’d say just a word about what those first moments were like when you were feeling a real clarity around … this isn’t a good fit for me. And you’re in, you know– increasing sense. This is a really toxic situation for lots of people. And yet people you loved your dearest friends were, you know, were a part of this organization. How, how did you navigate the competing voices, which I presume were going or sort of raging in your head, but also outside your head?
Bonnie: Yeah. So I had been gaslit for about a year and a half, I think it was, ‘cause I was seeing some problems and I was like trying to point them out, but I didn’t have much of a sense of like a strong sense of myself yet. I was doubting myself a lot and intuition was not really allowed. Like we actually were discrediting intuition of like, if you want to be data-based, you know, “where’s the evidence” kind of thing. And there’s no evidence for intuition other than you see how it like pans out over time. And so we were like, we’re feeling like we tap into things, but it’s intangible in a lot of ways. And so we were totally told to like discredit that and trained to cut that off.
And then after I’d been gaslit for a year and a half or a couple of years or whatever it was, I was jaded. I was like, like I was pretty beaten down. And I started to rebel by listening to other like spiritual podcasts and reading spiritual books, like getting back into Florence Scoville. And I think I even picked up The Alchemist again and that felt really like rebellious.
Brandon: How funny.
Bonnie: Now I think it’s really funny, but yeah, I was kind of rebelling and a lot of these things that I was reading and podcasts and things were saying, you know, look, like listen to your intuition. That was kind of the message that I was hearing. And so that was opening up in me. I was like, Hmm, okay, maybe I should. It felt so like, so not allowed. But then one day I sat down at my computer and I’m a really fast typer and I started journaling. And I would like ask a question to my higher self of like, you know, what’s the truth in this or what’s aligned here or tell me about this. And I would just write these really profound responses that didn’t feel like they were coming from my like little brain. And so I felt, okay, I’m tapping back in. I’m tapping into something like it was, it was exciting.
And I just would tell a couple of friends within the cult who were a bit more rebellious too of like, I’m doing this thing. And they’d actually encourage it. And I just went down that track. And I mean, long story short, that led to an enormous spiritual awakening in 2016, like huge Kundalini awakening, that I’m still processing. The energy now, like 10 years later, yeah, that was 2016. So that kind of led me back to myself to have this awakening. And then even though I didn’t know, like the darkness of really what was happening in NXIVM, like I’d seen the red flags. And I had been questioning, but I certainly didn’t know about any of the dark stuff. So it was a process of like, okay, coming to trust my own intuition, and also knowing that it was time for me to look at it. And knowing that it was time for me to leave, I was like, it’s time for me to leave.
But then getting the information of what had been going on, it was horrifying. Like that, that chapter of just hearing what they’d been doing behind the scenes. And like, I mean, I rolled around on the floor, like crying and throwing up and like, it was very visceral. And all the like shame and self-blame and everything too, in that chapter. And then the whistle blowing chapter. And again, you can, you know, go and watch HBO’s The Vow. But for me, I think my journey was interesting because I’d actually reclaimed my intuition. And that’s what got me out. Whereas for a lot of people, they had to reclaim that afterwards. Which was even harder. So like I had that. Yeah. And I picked up the tarot and I was like doing tarot for myself and learning how to kind of tune in more deeply. But yeah, after that spiritual awakening, my intuition went, like, it just, it went exponential.. And that’s what helped me. Yeah. Get out.
Brandon: I mean, thank you for naming all of that. And I wonder if you would maybe reflect a little bit on what sometimes we call like the cost or the price of listening to your intuition. I think often it’s portrayed as all sort of rainbows and unicorns. You listen to your intuition and then suddenly it’s liberation. And, you know, it’s my feeling and, you know, feel free to disagree or nuance this and however you would do this. But there is a cost. There is a price to pay. There’s energy. There’s work to be done. It’s not formulaic. You don’t just sort of show up and sort of surrender and boom, it all unfolds beautifully. There is some work and some hard work and some shadow work and there’s some facing the messy parts that we don’t want to confront. And of course, there’s risk along the way. And I mean, the risk was obviously great for you. I wonder how you managed the cost of really listening because you had a lot to lose.
Bonnie: Yes. So it would have been much more convenient to just either stick around, you know, like appease them or just to walk away and do nothing about it. But there was like a soul calling of … This has to stop. Like once I learned what they were doing, there was an intuitive calling, but also like a soul calling. And so that was not convenient at all. Like intuitively, I was being told this is a part of your mission. And, you know, even filming “The Vow,” I’m quite a private person. Like I share online in the way that I want to. But I don’t love having a camera in my face and especially not in my darkest moment, like in the messiest moment where I like, I look terrible and I’m ashamed. And like, I mean, it was the worst. Like so often I was crying in a corner and then there’s a camera like, Tell us what, why are you crying? What, you know, it’s like, oh my gosh, it was so hard. And the whole whistleblower process and going to law enforcement and everything. It’s interesting. I felt like we were on this train that was divinely guided. I mean, things unfolded in ways that I it’s hard to express how the pieces came together. It was amazing. So in a way, there was a lot of like divinity in it and signs and yeah, like recognition from the divine and little nudges and like, like the day that Nancy, that Nancy Solsman pled guilty, butterflies, thousands of butterflies through, flew through the air in LA. They were just flying past our window, like a whole cloud of butterflies. And the day that we testified to the FBI, like all of California was burning and the sky was red and like just this spiritual symbolism. So it felt like we were guided, but it was not easy. Not at all.
And I think even if you take this to something else of like, you get an intuitive hit that you’re meant to pursue something and maybe it’s a passion. Like you feel excited. There’s like the joy of like, Oh, like there’s something here for me. Even that … like things can flow and you can get the divine support, but you need to like step out of your comfort zone and you got to grow. So you’re going to get lessons and challenges and it’s not for the faint of heart. That’s for sure.
Brandon: It’s what in our Christian tradition, we might name as cheap grace, the wanting the benefits of growth and healing and expansion, but without the willingness to do the work and to endure the risk. And I think it’s, we understand why we all want to stay comfortable. It’s uncomfortable to change and grow.
Yeah. I mean, we can, we can sort of move away from the documentary, but just, just an appreciation from, from my family, from me for that sort of vulnerability and work. And I can’t imagine what that must have been like filming. And your telling the story, I think clearly was used by the divine to bring a lot of healing and growth to so many folks. So, so deep, a deep bow of gratitude. Thank you.
So, I wonder, it’s been, it’s been over 10 years or just about 10 years. Tell us the next couple of chapters that have unfolded after that, because you’re doing amazing work now and I’d love to hear more about it.
Bonnie: So the whistleblower chapter where the only thing that I wanted to do at that point was learn, like go deeper into my intuition. And although I wasn’t meditating at the time, I was just doing tarot and stuff, but that was calling me. Yeah. The whistleblower chapter. And that took us through like the trial and everything. I think I’m forgetting the timing of things now, but there was the trial, the conviction, the sentencing, like all of that. And that takes time. And so you’re like, there’s a lot of kind of hanging and waiting as well for verdicts once we kind of handed it over to law enforcement. And then we left LA. We were like, time to get out of here. We went to Portugal.
Brandon: As one does well deserved. Yeah. Yeah.
Bonnie: To a little beautiful fishing village, like on the, on the West and most coast of Europe, like how far can you go kind of thing? Well, Australia would have been further, but yeah, we went to Portugal, just fell in love with that coastline. The silver coast of Portugal. And it was so healing. Like we just, we still felt broken at that point very much so. And like licking our wounds very much in 2020, like right before COVID. And then of course there was COVID and actually COVID was the deciding factor because we were kind of floating. We were floating around, and then COVID happened. We were in California, but we didn’t have a place anymore. We were kind of like Airbnb-ing. And we were like, you know what, let’s go to Portugal. So that was when we moved there.
And then yeah, just daily beautiful beach walks and … the coastline’s rugged. Like they get really intense wind storms and like, yeah, massive storm, storms, sideways rain. It’s very dramatic. And so we’d walk like through this intense weather and just walk it out along the beach. And then in the thick of us feeling completely broken when COVID was happening and then “The Vow” came out and that led to a whole bunch of like online bullying of just nasty stuff as well as support, I will say. But we were licking our wounds and then I get the call about “Obi-Wan”. So that opens the next chapter.
Brandon: Oh my gosh. And what you’re comfortable sharing about that healing process, for example, like what were the spiritual practices? I mean, it sounds like walking on the beach. Just number one spiritual practice. I’m a walker. Augustine has this wonderful line saying–Augustine, an early church theologian who says “It is solved by walking.” And if I weren’t such a baby, I would have it tattooed on my body.
Bonnie: It is.
Brandon: So walking for me is one of my foundational spiritual practices. But I wonder– you mentioned meditation. What were the practices you were using or exploring or experimenting to support that healing process? Because I imagine, you know your healing process is sortof hard enough and messy enough as healing is, sortof in a contained private way, but then also then the documentary comes out and everyone knows your stuff, right, which in some ways must be re-traumatizing?
Bonnie: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, so that period. Yes. Firstly, the walking that was actually the main spiritual practice of like, just walk it off, move it off, shake it off. I couldn’t meditate at that point. It was just too much. So going back, yeah, “The Vow” came out and that was just shock horror. And it was a mix of amazing support. Like we would, we could, we got recognized in the street in Lisbon a bunch of like mostly Americans, but coming up and saying, You guys are so brave, like, you know, giving us hugs. So it was very supportive, but then also the online trolling on Twitter and just feeling really exposed, super exposed. So Portugal was a part of the healing being away from a lot of that.
And then Obi-Wan really opened up a new chapter where I was like, I have to be on a massive set and I don’t feel functional. And I’ve got massive PTSD, like super bad social anxiety, all the stuff. I was like, Get yourself together. So that was like the, I know, I was like, Okay, come on, we’re going to do this. And I, and I did like, I, I healed in many ways so that I could do that. But then real healing started to actually come after filming Obi-Wan. I was like, okay, now I can meditate. And I went back into the spiritual practice.
Brandon: So I love what you said. And this, I think isn’t talked about enough, is that sometimes meditation just isn’t possible. The body is so activated. The nervous system is so on high alert that it’s actually not possible to be still. And there’s no shame that’s needed around this. I mean, you know, I’ve been teaching meditation for almost 20 years now and it’s a walking meditation or yoga or, you know, various movement practices, dancing or other creative practices, cooking, gardening, right? Painting, acting, making music. So there’s no, there’s no shame. And so many people come to me like, I can’t meditate. There’s something wrong with me. And look, there’s so many ways up the mountain to the divine, right? And so there’s, there’s no hierarchy of path. So I just wanted to name that, that for you.
And, and you came back to meditation. It’s just great, which might be possible for some folks and may never be possible for others, right?
Bonnie: Right. Yeah. And it took a number of years to come back to that. Cause it was like, there was so much trauma in my body and it didn’t want to sit still like it wanted to move. Also, there’s a lot of confrontation. There can be with sitting in meditation. And just being still and not to say that everyone should do that because there are other ways to untangle it, but it’s a kind of like really getting present with what you’re feeling and what’s, what’s in there. And so the way that I approached meditation then was much less like I had done a ton of creative practices and like various kind of strict, more rigid meditations. And at that point I just came back to self-love of like presence and witnessing all the traumas in my body and holding a space for them and like really loving them and telling them like, it’s okay. You know, like let them be there and then gently they can relax and release. And you can actually be in presence, but it is different for everyone. And yeah, if some people feel that they can’t sit still, then don’t, don’t, you know, do Tai Chi walk, listen to the birds reflect.
Brandon: Watch Star Wars.
Bonnie: Watch Star Wars. Yeah.
Brandon: I mean, I feel like after all these years teaching, teaching students, teaching meditation, leading retreats, I’ve really just come down to teachings and you’ve said them so beautifully. presence and love.
I’m not sure that whatever I’m teaching, and whatever I’m leading retreat, it’s anything other than riffing on those, those two pieces. Anything else feels too complicated and veering, veering away. So I love that, that you landed there.
And I wonder if for folks who are listening who are really wanting to cultivate this self-trust, this inner knowing, maybe they found themselves repeatedly not listening, repeatedly outsourcing their inner knowing, finding themselves in gas-litting dynamics over and over. Are there a few, I mean, tips is what’s coming to mind. I’m not a big fan of tips culture, but how would you encourage them? Right? Like, what are the first few things you want them to keep in mind to begin to, to steer the ship back toward this, this deep kind of honoring and listening?
Bonnie: Yeah. So you said it really well. It’s like not listening to it, right? It’s like, it’s there. A lot of people know it’s there. They, they have a sense of it. They even hear it. They get the quiet whispers. They feel the nudges and it’s very feeling-based, right? Like it’s your body saying, oh, like go this way or that’s not the direction. So it’s in your body and it’s speaking to you all the time. And animals are very instinctual. Of course, like they listen, they don’t cut it off, but we, with our cultural programming have learned to cut it off and, you know, going back to what we were saying earlier, put ourselves in boxes and can’t do this and must do that. And all the shoulds. And so intuition breaks through the shoulds. And it’s of course, very inconvenient to, to follow at times, but it really is often that we know, but we dismiss it. So it’s a process of learning to honor it and act on it. Even if it’s just little ways, like getting a little nudge, like, like honor it, do something towards that. Even if it’s just a little bit. And it is scary because you’re breaking out of programming and it doesn’t make sense often.
And one other thing I would say is your heart, your heart energy. Like so often, if you’re trying to decide like, what’s a line for me, what should I do? And you’re feeling a sense of, you know, doubt about direction. Put your hand on your heart, close your eyes, have a breath, and then just like ask your heart, like, what’s aligned here? And it’ll speak.
Brandon: There’s been so much wonderful research by Kristin Neff around the self-compassion practice of hand to heart. It’s really, really beautiful in those really out of control moments where you feel like you’re losing your mind. The hand to heart is so, so tender and so powerful. And what I love about it is it sort of re-establishes a kind, compassionate relationship with yourself. Because for most of us, at least for me, I’ll speak for myself, like I thought for so much of my life, I could hate my way to growth, right? If I just hated myself and challenged myself, pushed myself, right? And of course, what’s insidious about this is that it works up until a point, right? You get accomplishments, you get jobs, you get diplomas. And then at some point, really, if you’re lucky enough, you start to see diminishing returns. Like, oh, this is taking more energy than it’s actually giving and reward, right? Did you find that too?
Bonnie: Oh, yeah. I mean, I started out, you know, as I said, doing Kriya Yoga, like back when I was 25, was when I picked that up. And that was great, like super powerful practice. I’m grateful for it. But the way that I approached it was very much like, sit down and do the correct pranayama and like, every morning and then like, you fast before the practice and like, really rigid, like I must get my Kriya practice in. And it wasn’t, it wasn’t very joyful. Now, I did tap into certain things with that. But by the time I just started controlling myself with it, it’s the opposite of what I was looking for. It’s like, oh, it’s like, it’s self-suppression. And it’s this interesting balance, isn’t it? Between discipline and self-suppression. And so it’s also been a journey of reclaiming discipline.
Brandon: Yeah.
Bonnie: Like, and I’m not sure I even like that word, but like, I like to say devotion. Devotion. Yeah. Like sitting down. Yeah. Like doing the thing, even if you don’t feel like it, there’s something to be said for that. It doesn’t all have to be like following what you feel. But from a loving place.
Brandon: Yeah. Well, and this is why I love having this conversation in the Leader’s Way Podcast, which is housed within, you know, like an Episcopal seminary, because you have so much to teach us about how to listen to intuition or the voice of the divine that’s sort of speaking in our heart. And there is this sort of devotional quality to it. It’s a devotion to this higher calling that it’s not just my programming. It’s not just, oh, the storyline that I’ve received from someone else. That there is something that’s wanting to speak in me and through me and arrive in my innermost being. And the best of religion has cultivated that. The worst of religion has tried to stamp it out, right? Right. And so, you know, religion obviously isn’t exempt for this. The NXIVM was a secular organization. It wasn’t exempt from this, right? So I think sometimes on social media, we get into this strange binary where it’s like spirituality=good, religion=bad. And the point is both can be good or bad. How do we want to name what’s a liberating path of inner knowing so that if we’re religious or if we’re spiritual, we can really honor that inner calling. That’s at least how I would name it. Do you see it similarly or differently?
Bonnie: Absolutely. And yeah, that really, it makes me think of how like there are so many beautiful teachings even that come from such a beautiful place. But then sometimes like people can form these organizations that, you know, there’s a certain human that’s leading who’s manipulative or whatever it is. And then they corrupt the thing. It’s like it was beautiful at its core, but then humans do their thing and they want to control themselves and other humans. And then you lose the beauty of it. And so it really is about intention. And yeah, like even systems that you could say are very like quote-unquote toxic. There’s also beautiful things within them that you don’t have to throw everything away.
Brandon: Well, and this was what was so I think riveting, terrifying about NXIVM for me. We love watching cult documentaries. You know, we, you know, my background is theology and spirituality. So obviously this is like, you know, like what I do for work. Right. But what was especially terrifying about the NXIVM documentary is like, Oh, this is one where you could see there’s a significant percentage of real truth here and real wisdom alongside incredible toxic manipulative behavior. And so this is the piece that I think we all have to keep in mind that like no cult starts out without any truth. Right? There wouldn’t be any followers if you didn’t have wisdom. Right. Right. The problem of course is that that initial vision becomes so distorted in a maybe right at the beginning it was distorted and NXIVM who knows. But so yeah, thank you for naming this. So I think whether you know we’re in the spiritual but not religious world, whether we’re faithfully in a church or religious world, this is still a really important discernment. Like how do we stay true to the divine voice within us? Yeah. And I know you’re helping people to do this in your work now. Can you, can you share a little bit about the work you’re doing now to guide folks one on one and it sounds really beautiful.
Bonnie: Yeah. So initially I was doing intuitive readings, which were beautiful, just tuning in and really feeling, feeling into like how can I best support the person moving forward and you know what messages want to come through me to share with them on their path. So it was just like intuitive reading. And I loved that. And then last year I actually got the call of … like, close the books for a while. So I’m not doing them right now, but I probably will again at some point. But the real meaningful work for me right now is one-on-one mentoring. And I mean, groups are great too. Like I love a group experience is beautiful and I’ve actually reclaimed that too. I had to throw away the groups for a while.
But like, of course community is amazing, but there’s something about sitting down with a person in one session or like over a period of time and just witnessing them; firstly reminding them of their beauty and magnificence because so many people have forgotten. It’s like … that’s actually one of the first things I reflect to people. I’m like, do you see this about yourself? You know, like, do you see this about your essence? Like it’s amazing. And often it start, they start off kind of like, Oh, like, you know, like shy about it. And then over time they, they really start to own the beauty of who they are. And that they deserve good; they deserve … they’re so worthy of incredible things in their lives. And it’s really just helping helping people peel away those limitations where they like keep themselves small. Or stay comfortable and like in the familiar kind of yes, small life, when there’s like these amazing big expressions that want to come through them. So I would say it’s helping people spiritually reconnect and come back to the truth of who they are and tap into that. And see how their soul wants to express that in the world.
And then I just like, I encourage them and I’ll point stuff out. If I see that they’re like holding themselves back, I’ll be like, Hey, wait, let’s talk about this. And then we’ll talk it through and kind of unravel it. And then like so often it shifts and then they’re free to move forward just by pointing it out and challenging it.
Brandon: So what I love about this is, um, you know, your starting point is, you know, to reflect back the beauty of someone and you know, the etymology of beauty comes from the Latin word, beatus, which means blessed, right? That there’s a, there’s a spiritual nature to all of us that if we can honor it, our natural beauty just, just arrives. And in your work with folks, where do folks get stuck? I mean, this is the great kind of spiritual question, right? We all have infinite worth. We’re all radiantly beautiful. And yet, um, there’s something about our education, our culture, the, the world that we grow up in, um, where we forget. And how do you name that? Why, how do we forget?
Bonnie: Yeah, right. Okay. So there’s a few things that I think of and people get of course stuck in different places. But one, like the first kind of core place that I see people get stuck is by not going within. It’s like, there’s something calling them within, whether that’s in meditation or just kind of self-reflection. I’m thinking of one person in particular who kind of felt there was something inside that she was being called to explore just by actually being still, like she, she wanted to kind of stop everything and cancel work plans and just sit and be still. But there was a fear of like, but then I won’t want to be productive and like, I won’t get stuff done. So for years, she’d just been super productive. She was very successful, like super successful woman, but she realized that everything was actually towards just staying productive, you know? And there was this thing calling her that wanted her to be still. And so I’ll never forget actually in the first session, I just kind of helped her go there. It’s like, let’s just, let’s, let’s see like what’s going to happen if you do that. And she went in for like just a few minutes and then she started crying, like just the most beautiful awareness or whatever you want to call it, like realization experience of her own essence and spiritual truth. And she was just weeping. Like, like this is the thing that I’ve been avoiding. Like there’s actually nothing scary inside when you really face it.
And from there, of course, it opened up this questioning that is kind of still unfolding to this day of like, what does she want? Given that everything she was doing, and this is not the case for everyone, of course, like sometimes you can be successful and that, that is your mission. But for her, she needed to reassess because her soul wanted something else, quiet and stillness. So, but yeah, so there’s, there’s many different ways that people get blocked, but it comes down to that essence often.
Brandon: You know, it’s funny in the book of Genesis, after Adam and Eve eat, eat of the tree that they were forbidden to eat of, one of the first things that they do, the famous first thing, of course, they realize they’re naked. They make little garments for themselves. But, but after that, um, they hide from God. It’s really interesting. This impulse to hide this impulse of shame. And of course, it’s completely absurd. Why would we hide from our truest essence? Why would we hide from the source of love itself? And yet this is often so comfortable and I love, you’re describing this kind of weeping, this, when you come home to yourself, that weeping for many of us is the, is the only response.
I was working with this really, he’s a founder, business owner, probably a billionaire, really macho guy, hunter, very, came in really hot and angry. And we worked and we worked maybe by our sixth or seventh session. And he said, I have to tell you, Brandon, I’ve just been crying all week. He said, when is the crying going to stop? They were tears of joy. They were tears of sadness. They were all, all the things. And I said, Oh, my friend, you know, um, the tears aren’t the penalty. They are the reward of an open heart. Right. And he, and he was sort of half disappointed, but half really excited. Right. Yeah. Like, so I, I, I love that. Like this touching into who you really are is this expansiveness to be a front row, have a front row seat to that must be extraordinary.
Bonnie: It’s so beautiful to witness. Yeah. And there’s the layers of it. And then, you know, as I said, people remembering how awesome they are, like as kids, people are so expressive of like, Look at me, you know, and then we’re taught to like, you know, don’t be too full of yourself or whatever. And it’s not like I encourage people to go down that full of themselves path, but it’s like to really recognize how great they are and own that in the world. And then get to see how they get compensated for that in so many different ways and how they attract incredible things because they’re standing there. They’re owning their value of who they are.
Brandon: So Bonnie, one of the traditions we have here at the Leaders Way podcast is we have a little segment called Holy Cow, which is our listeners, exuberated, exuberant, you know, exclamation after discovering things about you that we’ve always wanted to know. And so there are five questions that we, that we love to ask. And because the people want to know, the first question is, what do people most misunderstand about you or about what you do?
Bonnie: So I would take this back to intuition because I get these intuitive hits and I feel things really strongly before most people do like the cult or whatever, like so many different things that I’ll pick up on about the world before people do that. Then if I speak that people think I’m crazy all the time. So sometimes I speak it, sometimes I’ll just, you know, okay, I’ll zip it for a bit. But yeah, there, I do feel misunderstood often if I say things because I see things before people do often.
Brandon: Yeah. I mean, you know, in, in biblical terms, this is often the role of the prophet to be light years ahead of the rest of the community. And it means a kind of loneliness for, for much of life.
Bonnie: It’s not fun in some ways. Oh no. Yeah. You get outcast.
Brandon: Yeah. So thank you. Thank you for embracing, embracing that role. Number two, what’s your go to comfort food?
Bonnie: Chocolate. Is that comfort food? I mean, it’s a vice, right?
Brandon: Is there any other food?
Bonnie: Chocolate and cheese.
Brandon: Oh my gosh. I mean, one could live a whole life. Okay. Then I have to ask the follow up. Like what are the two favorites for chocolate and cheese?
Bonnie: Um, okay. So it has to be ceremonial grade cacao. And there’s one company that I really love that’s actually a friend of mine. I’m not sponsored, but she’s awesome. The company is called Wana Hey and yeah, she makes ceremonial grade like kind of chocolate blocks. And then you can also turn it into a hot chocolate. So I would say hers is magnificent and totally like charged with the divine. And then cheese. I don’t know the name of the brand, the one that I’m loving right now, but I get it from a local organic farm and they deliver it. It’s like a raw … you know, organic cheese from … I dunno grass-fed like free roaming cows.
Brandon: Oh my gosh. There’s this little cheese shop, um, on the way home from, from where I do my one-on-one work on the weekends and it is the weekly pilgrimage. And just to come home with a little piece of cheese and to, to sort of present it to my family and everyone gathers around. It’s a religious,
Bonnie: … like a special cheese.
Brandon: No one knows what I’m going to choose. What’s um, what’s a bad habit that you’re willing to share with us?
Bonnie: Okay. So I don’t think the cheese and chocolate is a bad habit, but the amount that I eat can be a bad habit.
Brandon: The sheer volume, right?
Bonnie: Like I’ve been known to really overdo the chocolate and my husband Mark often says like, if you eat chocolate, you’re meant to just like have a bit, right? And he says like, he watches me eat a chocolate meal. He’s like, you’re not meant to have a whole meal out of chocolate.
Brandon: Okay, Mark, we’re going to have a talk. We need to talk to that guy.
Bonnie: And then because I’m sensitive, I get like too hyped up from the stimulants. I’m like, yeah, why do I feel anxious? Well, just cause you ate like a massive block of ceremonial cacao.
Brandon: I don’t know that I want you to stop doing that, but maybe I’m going to need one. Okay. Um, number four, what life lesson do you find yourself still learning over and over?
Bonnie: Yeah. You know, all this talk of intuition, I am absolutely still learning to trust it. Like there are things that happen often where it’s like, oh, I’ll get a little nudge about like, Oh, I don’t think this thing is quite aligned or whatever it is. And still to this day, I don’t feel like I’m going to be able to trust it. I don’t fully listen. Often I do, but I still get caught off guard sometimes. And it’s like, yeah, more and more that lesson gets taught to me every time. Even if it’s subtle, it’s like we get intuitively guided even in terms of like how we go about our day and the timing of things. And I’m still learning to dial that all in.
Brandon: Always learning. Yeah. I wonder, I often wonder like on my death bed,
will I still be learning? And I think, yeah, I think, I think so. I think right. So we’ve never arrived. Right.
Bonnie: And you reach points where you feel like you have arrived. Like when I had that big awakening, I for sure was like, I’ve arrived. I’m enlightened, you know, but then it’s like, nah, there’s more.
Brandon: There’s always more, there’s always more. And finally, what keeps you going when that, that nasty inner critic tells you to stop or tells you, you know, it gives you all sorts of reasons why this is just useless and worthless. And why bother with any of it?
Bonnie: Yeah. Pep talks. I love to give myself pep talks actually, like, and talking to myself as though, you know, like talking to the little girl in me that’s scared, like if she’s like being punishing with herself or like, yeah, all the inner dialogue, then I’ll just like hold her, like give her a hug. And then just like pat her on the back and I’ll say, Can I just tell you, you’re doing so great. And I’ll like, I’ll say You’re moving through this with such grace. And I know it’s hard and often it feels like you lose yourself, but it’s like you’re, you’re doing wonderfully at being a human. Can we just like acknowledge that? And I’ll give myself a pep talk. And then the little girl is like, Okay, thank you. You know, and then she feels better.
Brandon: I think you’ve brought some poetry for us to bring us in, uh, for a landing with.
Bonnie: I did. So this was kind of channeled through, and I shared it actually recently on one of my podcast episodes. And it feels like a message for these times because yes, things are crazy and a lot of people are feeling, you know, the turmoil or the transition, like the, like the transformation that’s happening and it’s uncomfortable, all of that. But we are coming into something really beautiful. And so that’s a mess. This is a message about that. And it’s also just about spiritual awakening.
Brandon: Beautiful.
Bonnie:
New vibrance,
new frequencies and color spectrums,
veils thinning layers of fog and blurriness,
peeling away,
revealing the bright, vibrant truth of existence.
Your soul’s whispers are getting clearer.
Your inner guidance is immediately available,
directing you through the language of frequency.
A new kind of guidance system is arising one that’s instantaneous.
There’s no longer a need to wait for answers and signs. They’re right here, right now in the present moment,
time is folding in on itself.
If it feels disorienting at times,
relaxation is the key to coming back to the center,
holding on grasping,
tightening your muscles
and guarding against the present moment and natural responses, but they’re blocking source,
blocking the very thing that would fill you up
with everything you’ve ever wanted.
Source is remembered through openness.
Sources light is received through softening,
allowing, releasing and trusting.
Knowing that you are so held, so protected,
so guided and so loved.
It’s time to live from that connection,
to act and express from presence and aliveness.
How much can you open to the frequency of miracles?
How much can you shake off the fog and lock in to the truth of your soul?
What would you do if you truly knew in this moment that all is well?
How would you be?
What inspired actions would you take?
How would you move through the world?
You are presence. You are light. You are radiance.
Brandon: Bonnie Piesse, thank you for your words, for your wisdom, for sharing your life with us in so many ways. We, um, we’re, I’m so grateful for this conversation and we’re so grateful for the many creative ways you show up. I can’t wait to see the, the film that’s coming up, the mystery film that we’ll, that we’ll know when we know, um, where can we find you? And, um, how can folks connect with you?
Bonnie: Thank you so much, Brandon. Um, yeah. So you can find me on Instagram at Bonnie M peace, which is P I E S S E or at Your Quantum Life, my spiritual one or on YouTube, uh, “Your Quantum Life with Bonnie.” If you want to just email me, you can send me an email at Bonnie@yourquantum.life. I’d love to hear from you.
Brandon: Thanks so much for all you do.
Bonnie: Thank you. Thank you so much.
Brandon: Thank you for joining us today on the Leader’s Way podcast, a show for people who are not ready to give up on the world. We hope you found the episode expansive and nourishing. If you enjoyed the episode, please be sure to subscribe, rate and review the podcast on your favorite platform. Your support helps us to continue bringing you sacred conversations with luminaries, scholars, and spiritual leaders. We’re dedicated to transforming our world for more information about our guests and to catch up on past episodes, visit our website at Berkeley divinity.yale.edu. Follow the show on Instagram at theleadersway.podcast to stay updated on future episodes and events. Until next time, I’m Dr. Brandon Nappi, walking with